Chris Ryan
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Yep you are right with the series of books. My favourite is definitely The Watchman, but I haven't read Greed yet so I'll check that out asap. I really felt for Meehan in The Watchman.
And yes, Level 3 on CR's SAS Fitness Guide is a killer! I love it!
take care, speak soon
>>By Paul R (Tuesday, 15 Jul 2003 17:07)
Ortlieb, Neil Slater in the Hit List. I particularly liked this one - Ryan really paced himself well in third-person narrative, which on the whole puts him in the same category as Frederick Forsyth...
Ryan's acquired a more professional author stance as opposed to first-person narrative associated with first-time novelists. First-time writers being more prone to self point of view as the first step into novice writing, when authors persist in continuance of first-person narrative psychologists tend to assess their work as a person unable to see things from a anothers' perspective...Though nothing is ever black and white in psychology, but ego does have a major part in first-person narrative, like a first novel is like a first baby!
>>By buddy (Tuesday, 15 Jul 2003 17:32)
Buddy,
does that mean my first book will take 9 months to get published?
>>By Paul R (Tuesday, 15 Jul 2003 18:56)
Eleven months if assuming elephant status!!
>>By buddy (Tuesday, 15 Jul 2003 21:24)
Oooh no, you lot, you guys are everywhere.
Paul R : are you doing the fitness thingy from CR's book for real? If yes how much weight did you loose?
So Buddy are you saying that CR is a better writer than AM?
>>By borisette (Wednesday, 16 Jul 2003 20:27)
thank you very much it is nice to talk to you to borisette! lol
>>By christina (Wednesday, 16 Jul 2003 20:38)
Borisette,
I didn't really lose any weight as such, I train 6 days a week anyway. But I did gain some strength. I used it to change up my existing routine, after about 6 weeks my body gets used to the exercises and I need to shock it up a bit.
The suggestions he makes for running and walking build ups are a great way to start out if you're not used to cardio workouts.
good luck!
>>By Paul R (Wednesday, 16 Jul 2003 21:00)
Well I guess I'll have to buy that one aswell then, I just hate running, I get bored after a while. It's not that I have to loose weight, I just need to tighten up those muscles wich I once had. Maybe I should ask AM's wife she's a Pilates teacher, so maybe she can help me out aswell.
>>By borisette (Wednesday, 16 Jul 2003 22:38)
I thought since I've been mean about CR on AM's page I'd better come on here and be nice to him, just in case. I did love the watchman, but did not like zero option, he obviously didn't think very hard about what events to put in it. But, I've left alone the SAS fitness guide, I have my own set of strenuous arm strengthening exercises with pint glasses full of beer. Nice to see you all. Ha ha.
>>By Bethan (Thursday, 17 Jul 2003 09:33)
Borisette becomes you in good old "cheerleader" style: high-kicking whilst tossing your tassle pom-poms!!
What quantifies a "better" writer?
Personal tates for one, and for me Ryan has moved on from his Enid Blyton days of the secret five (eight in SAS terms) daring do of self analysis and biographical reflections (first-person narrative...He's telling the stories of some of his mates/new found friends in the SAS, those who are unable/resticted/prevented from writing own accounts of Somalia/Bosnia/Kosovo,Afghanistan etc. Also, his vocabulary has always been a tad more expansive than AM, (being that you want me to specifically compare these two as writers), and as an added pointer Johnny (TC) Howard outshines both on literary merit.
In part I would say the difference between AM & CR's writing is due, perhaps, to Ryan's greater use of a theasaurus. But that said Ryan did have a better level of primary education prior to military service than that of McNab, which would account for better understanding of wordly alternatives, and as soon as his level of bitterness/rivalry, and acceptance of how things had panned out in Gulf War 1 he moved on in his life and his head!!!
But, of course, one has to take into account the fact that McNab set out with biographies too, and likewise wrote "his" first Nick Stone novel from first-person viewpoint as did Ryan with his first throes into the writing of novels. However, McNab's choice of serialised NS novels had its own predestined path which more or less precluded any change of character viewpoint...
AM is basically stuck in a rut unless he reinvents himself with new characters, because no matter what he writes he writes from AM viewpoint...Nothing he writes reflects anyone else' thoughts/understandings of his or other character situations...
Does this kind of writing imply AM is unable to absorb other peoples perspectives/ideas? He's admitted in his writings that he is cold/unresponsive to emotions outside of his own sensory zone, that he can't hold relationships together (takes two admittedly) that he will run from domestic crisis rather than face up to responsibilities!!! Quite frankly, a woman will only hang on to him "long-term" when he finally stops running from himself, when he finally realises he can run but he can't hide from the demon within, but, that he can harness that demon if he wants to.
>>By buddy (Thursday, 17 Jul 2003 10:14)
Bethan, quantify, if you will, what you meant by: CR "...didn't think very hard about what events to put in to... Zero Option..."
I haven't read it, but did thoroughly enjoy "Tenth Man Down" (many here didn't) * The Hit List was excellent - based on/around Robet Maxwell's bizarre death...
As you can see from above, personal comparison of CR vs AM = as pushed for by Borisette, who probably doesn't much like my response. As the saying goes, delve into dark holes there might be a nasty truth lurking in there....
All that said, and I'll say it again, I admire AM for other reasons that cannot be broached here...
>>By buddy (Thursday, 17 Jul 2003 10:27)
Buddy
I think I should explain my views on CR a little better. First of all I feel he is developing more as a writer than AM, as you said quite rightly, AM can not imagine a situation through eyes that aren't his own (good English!!). CR has proved he can put another persons perspective into a situation, and by creating characters that although have a similar backbone are different enough for it to be believable.
The only book that I feel let him down is ZO. And for a pretty trivial reason - he put too much reality into it without disguising it. All writers base their fiction on reality, but the good writers can hide it well enough so it doesn't stand out like a beacon. For example, some elements in the book were also written about in TOTGA (his personal story, not Geordie Sharp), Botswana (also written about by AM in IA), the Prime Minister in the Killing House (TOTGA also written about by AM), at least he changed the name I suppose. For me that ruined the fiction behind the storyline. That could be put down to beginners error, and for me, his editor should have knocked those bits out. And it's probably a very stupid reason for not enjoying the book as much but hey I'm awkward!
To be fair to him The Watchman was superb, that is how I would like his fiction to run, no obvious referrals to real events, that are already published (that published bit is important in my argument, for obvious reasons). I'm reading the Kremlin Device now and it's so far so good, although the russian accent in my head probably doesn't do them justice. I'd be interested to know if you agree!
>>By Bethan (Thursday, 17 Jul 2003 12:52)
Bethan, I haven't read The Kremlin Device...
You need my husband to do a rendition of his Russian accent (convincing: very, he's a natural lingo inpersonator), in fact he's quite good at understanding the Russian language, too. His Irish regional accents are so good he's fooled no end of Irish people. He'd make for a great radio actor/narrator/dubber. Whereas, in front of a camera he'd end up making faces at the cameraa crew = a natural born fool...
When it comes to writing about SAS related subjects it's inevitable there will be re-runs of same real-time events. I suppose who ever gets a book out first is technically the lead writer, but unless one knows individual publishing dates of all books on same subject matter how can one know which of the authors happens to be the trend-setter...
In any case, men can't think for themselves and tend to follow trendy flow, same way they follow/chase each other up and down a rugby pitch...What about Frederick Forsyth who's book on Gulf War 1 came out long after the ex SAS boys books, hence portions of each SAS book noticeable within FFs SAS offering...
What about Jilly Cooper having plagiarised a very descriptive bluebell wood passage as written by an American author in the early 30s, whom, presumably Jilly thought would be long dead, only she wasn't (89yrs young and never a bestselling book to her name) the American author took Jilly's desire to "copy word for word" as a compliment from a bestselling author.
>>By buddy (Thursday, 17 Jul 2003 19:21)
Buddy,
Oh no I don't disagree with you at all, how could I, I've only read 1 CR's book and that is TOTGA (so that was in the 1 person for sure).
You have a point there with AM, yes and if he also declared himself (where did you find that)
that he's cold/unresponsive to emotions...etc
(won't quote everything) than he REALLY has
a problem, and I can understand quite a lot about this man. (as I'm the complete opposite, I'll dig into problems untill I haven't found the solution or the why's or what's).
But I also think he's no child anymore and in some way, even with outside help, he should start facing these problems. (generally one does not admitt there is a problem , but as he admitted it himself). And yes it does take 2 to have a relationship, but then maybe he never has found (hopefully now yes) "THE" companion or friend for him, that can stand up to him and face him goes down and gets him to see the facts.
Now what I didn't understand why the 2 of them (talking about CR and AM) didn't get along, especially after the GW1, when they were back at Hereford. As CR said that AM didn't reply any of his phonecalls, and when they met he only nodded towards him. I mean if one of your mates has made it over the border, wasn't captured and tortured or killed, I think one should be absolutly glad to see him back. Even in AM's B20 he doesn't mention CR all that much, like some of the other guys.
Only that CR has an incredible story to tell.
>>By borisette (Thursday, 17 Jul 2003 19:55)
"where did you find that"?
Noted in several statements, not least in my company...
When someone says: "if you want to, I do to, but if you don't it doesn't matter, if you know what I mean" = it clearly matters (if only for the moment ((sometimes badly)) - ego at stake for starters) and the person broaching is really saying:"hey, I want to do this with you, but if you don't I don't give a toss: the unsaid: I'll go elsewhere where I can get what I want...
There's an element of challenge in the above and this person is covering his ass in case it's a NO reply...How many women would see the above challenge as flattery and how many would say NO thank you? I'll guarantee the majority would say YES please.
AM certainly isn't a child in the physical sense, a part of his mind set clearly in the grown up world and adult sector of life, but that doesn't mean the "rejected" little boy within has miraculousy found what it is that he's looking for. The mindset of men (sometimes women) abandoned at birth, will go with the flow of life and often resort to hunting for affection/gratification, (on their terms - a switchoff point if it gets complicated or when they feel they are losing control of the one emotion they can't face up to) = forever seeking that elusive being: to love and punish! That's why they fall into relationships but can't wait to escape them either. Woman is the temptress to all straight men (heterosexual men), the being who gives pleasure, provides heirs, the supposed nurturing element no matter what, and men like AM seek more than just a lover/mother (children), they seek all the elements of female supremacy: instant attraction, seduction, (lust/obsession) the chase, conquering their momentary hearts desire, to be vanquished too, nurtured, controlled, in effect they want a mother/mistress/whore, and all wrapped up in the one package they are no longer able to run away from...Hence, they often marry pretty young things and have an older mistress elsewhere, why (?) read about the Oedipus factor, which "particularly" afflicts abandoned male babies...
Hey, this forum is supposed to be about Chris Ryan, who is fairly uncomplicated in his dealings with woman, though I understand he's wary about women after his money these days...Prenuptual agreement order of the day...Guess that would be a sensible move for AM too, in light of past performance of jumping into marriage sacks and his leaping out of windows..
>>By buddy (Friday, 18 Jul 2003 10:47)
Buddy
I don't think CR plagiarised (glad you spelt that) anything because both he and AM will have served at the same time so have the same stories, only that he should have left them out of the fiction novel after writing the same passages (not exactly) in TOTGA. A taped copy of your husband's russian accent would be good ha ha, you should read it, I enjoyed it.
Borisette
As for AM and CR my pennies worth is we don't know what went on before the B20 mission, it's possible they never liked each other before Iraq. Trouble in paradise sells more books than behaving like the waltons!
>>By Bethan (Friday, 18 Jul 2003 10:52)
Talking about being uncomplicated with women - isn't he married? What's he worrying about other women for? Little old fashioned head on there. But then do men ever grow out of the 'she must fancy me' stage? Sorry blokes, that's probably a little unfair and no I haven't just been dumped!!
>>By Bethan (Friday, 18 Jul 2003 11:00)
Last I heard, Ryan was on the loose from marital restraint...
Whatever, I will stand by the fact that other SAS men have said (in my company) words to the effect: "you can say what you like about Ryan in respect of TOTGA (book) but the truth is he did what is expected of a Reg man compromised on an op. He evaded capture, and his escape took twice as much willpower (mental strength) to achieve out there in the desert on his tod.
By relaying that I'm not attempting to lessen AM's (others')traumatic experience of capture, nor the consequences of the kind of humiliation.degradation they were subjected to...
>>By buddy (Saturday, 19 Jul 2003 09:09)
Good point about Ryan's escape, no way I would survive past an hour! Had a marathon train journey this weekend and took Land of Fire - very good. Although in these later books all the guys seem to be having sex a lot more...
>>By Bethan (Monday, 21 Jul 2003 14:26)
Well, I guess if authors write about what they know (SAS men no exception) then we can judge Ryan as getting a good dose of pleasure factor at the mo...
>>By buddy (Monday, 21 Jul 2003 15:35)
Well I feel a bit sorry for CR lagging so far behind, he hasn't even got to page 3 yet.
>>By Bethan (Tuesday, 22 Jul 2003 12:54)
Mr Brown, QC in the Coburn case told the court that Ryan's book, The One That Got Away, had caused 'real unhappiness' and 'sagging morale' in the SAS.
>>By Lynn (Tuesday, 22 Jul 2003 20:46)
Do I have to run now too Bethan???
>>By Lynn (Tuesday, 22 Jul 2003 20:47)
Hia Lynn!!
We'll get him onto page 3 now and yes it would be nice to have a running buddy. With two of us one could put down covering fire while the other runs - he'd be so proud if he read this!! Because in a straight contest I'd need a two mile head start on him. Mind you maybe Mr Coburns QC could join us in running ha ha.
>>By Bethan (Wednesday, 23 Jul 2003 10:10)
I'm hoping that this will knock him onto page 3. I'm hoping one of you can win a bet for me. At the end of the Watchman who's the bloke in the leather jacket (that shouldn't give too much away) I say one thing dumb friend another. Thank you kindly. Mind you nobody ever looks on here so I think this bet will run and run.....
>>By Bethan (Friday, 25 Jul 2003 10:06)
Hi, everybody
I'm sorry to disappoint you guys, but you seem to be unaware that a book titled "The Real Bravo Two Zero" written by Michael Asher (himself former SAS) was published last year and it blasts Chris Ryan's "The One That Got Away" (and McNab's own Bravo Two Zero book) out of the water, dismissing it as a highly fictionalized, wildly exaggerated account of the Bravo Two Zero mission.
Asher's book was based on the testimonials of Iraqi eyewitnesses, but also on Ryan's and McNab's post-mission debriefs with their SAS superiors in Hereford that never mentioned the Rambo-like exploits described in their books...
>>By HM (Friday, 25 Jul 2003 11:32)
yep we all know there is real bravo two zero book and there was a TV programm and i think some of us have read it and watched it, i watched the programme but i aint read the book yet so little time!
>>By christina (Saturday, 26 Jul 2003 13:31)
Indeed we know HM... could you tell us how you are so sure Michael Asher's book is the 'truth and nothing but the truth'?
Could you also tell us what the real reason is for M. Asher to write the book. He's telling us he wanted to know the truth behind the discrepancies in the two books (Ryan/McNab) but are you sure that's the real/only reason?
Can you tell us what it means for a book to be "based on the testimonials of Iraqi eyewitnesses" How do you know they were telling the truth and nothing but the truth?
Don't get me wrong.. I'm not saying Ryan and McNab's books are a 100% accurate but why would Asher be?
>>By Lynn (Sunday, 27 Jul 2003 20:13)
i dont think it really matters who is telling the most truth becasue beacsue they are both good books and were enjoyable to read.
>>By christina (Sunday, 27 Jul 2003 20:24)
Christina and Lynn,
I'm the guy previously identified as 'HM' (that wasn't such a good nickname, so I dropped it).
I don't want to be annoying, but consider the facts:
1) I've never said that Michael Asher's book is 'the truth and nothing but the truth'.
2) Lynn, you imply that Asher had other motives for wrtiting his book. Of course, he probably made money since it was a bestseller. He could have simply posted his findings about the B20 mission on a Web page, but I think he wanted to publish a book and make a TV program in order to reach a wider audience. And unless he starts a series of SAS-related novels or fitness/self-help guides or sets up a private security company (like Ryan or McNab), you can't blame him for trying to cash in on his SAS experience or B20 investigation.
3) Most importantly, one of Asher main motives for writing his book was to vindicate Vince Phillips, the B20 patrol's second-in-command who didn't come back and who was blamed for being incompetent and even cowardly (especially in Ryan's account).
4) Being a fluent Arab speaker and familiar with the Arab world, It seems obvious that Michael Asher wanted also to set the record straight about the Iraqis, because of the way they were depicted in McNab's book. According to Asher, McNab and his patrol members hadn't been tortured to the extent he claims they had.
5) Asher's book was based not only on Iraqi testimonials but also on the debriefs/reports the patrol members made to their hierarchy in Hereford. They never mentioned the massive casualties inflicted to the enemy nor the fierce firefights as claimed in the books (there were only minor skirmishes), nor the sentries killed by Ryan with his bare hands nor the vehicles blown up with rocket launchers...
Asher met other SAS dudes who told him that, after the publication of McNab and Ryan's B20 accounts, the soldiers in the Regiment considered them with contempt or ridicule.
Quite a lot of things to meditate on...
>>By Harlan (Tuesday, 29 Jul 2003 11:39)
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