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Yes or No.
And you can be as productive as you want, but still be in the shit.
That guy was right, whoever he was, "whoever dies with the most toys wins". What a lovely society we're showing our children. That they should only care about where the money lies. We've got enough dollar seekers and opportunists in the world right now without breeding a whole new generation of them. Maybe Ragnarok got it wrong - it wasn't three consectutive winters that was a sign of the apocalypse, it was three consectutive generations of thick idiots who's sole ambition was to earn money, to buy expensive things and to congeal in their own dilusional self importance. Phew - glad I'm someone who's *different*.
>>By Tchock (Thursday, 7 Jun 2007 12:44)
Key words...productivity...ambition...self-worth. We don't live in an agrarian society...most have to commute to their word....most use their cars to find good, high paying jobs...or to find newer and bigger and less expensive housing. Both spouses need transportation....Tchock you're living in a society that is light years behind where American society has evolved. There will be more and more cars, not less and less. There will be more and more buildings, stadiums, supermarkets, banks, and all kinds of things in general. You are living in denial and without. Not very complicated at all...I don't want what I can't have. You don't seem to be able to dream anymore. At your age that is a shame.
>>By lv2read (Thursday, 7 Jun 2007 13:15)
No, dream is *all* we can do. Productivity and ambition are not the only virtues. Is it really so hard to believe that someone can do without the luxuries that come with lots of money and still be a good person? And an happy person. I know people like that and I admire them for it, so if you're telling me they're in some way inferior to people like you then you're insulting them. It's YOU who's shutting out reality by pretending those people don't exist because you live in a suburban fantasy land, surrounded by shiny cars and swimming pools and people just like you. You need to get out more, travel, meet some different kinds of people. And I mean meet them, get to know them, not just observe them and apply your stupid little life philosophy to them.
And as for MORE CARS, MORE BANKS, MORE SUPERMARKETS... at *your* age you don't have to worry about it but do you know what? It can't go on forever. Commerce, growth. It can't keep getting bigger.
Firstly, it depends on certain raw resources from the planet and the planet is running out.
Secondly, it depends on politicians and heads of industry cheating, lying, exploiting both their workers and the public, making promises with no intention of delivering... and there's only so much of that that people will take. Why do you think the Roman Empire fell? Why do you think the communist revolution happened?
And finally, it depends on the human race being around to make these advancements. And as long as any country has nuclear weapons and the potential to use them, the human race is under threat of near-total destruction. Is it science fiction, the idea that a nuclear war could break out at some point in the 21st century? I don't think so.
Your problem, l2r, is that you think things will never change. You'll accept the changes that have already happened, the ones you approve of. For instance, you keep telling us about how communist Russia is dead and gone. But you can't comprehend the idea that the same thing could happen to capitalist America. Well I'm sorry but it could.
>>By Flagg (Thursday, 7 Jun 2007 14:13)
Hello lv2read,
>Tchock you're living in a society that is light years behind where American society has evolved.
Could you please clarify exactly what you mean by this statement. I'm very, very interested in this one........
>You don't seem to be able to dream anymore. At your age that is a shame.
The ability to dream does not equal monetary greed at the expense of society and the planet - there are much more worthy things to aspire to.
>>By Diane76 (Thursday, 7 Jun 2007 22:09)
"Illusion is the first of all pleasures."
Oscar Wilde
>>By Tchock (Friday, 8 Jun 2007 00:45)
Flagg is 100% right.
The way we are going is not sustainable. Sooner or later - within ten years - there is going to be another economic crash.
And no, most people use a job centre or newspaper to find jobs; not their cars.
More and more and more buildings and cars and motorways and endless aisles in supermarkets. How much more can the human race consume before it finally turns into Mr. Creosote from The Meaning of Life?
Can't you SEE what your precious capitalism is doing to the human race & the world ??
"The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope. "
Karl Marx
>>By Tchock (Friday, 8 Jun 2007 02:12)
<You are living in denial and without. Not very complicated at all...I don't want what I can't have. You don't seem to be able to dream anymore. At your age that is a shame.>
Ohhh you have got me VERY wrong indeed.
In denial...... only about my imminent exam results.
Living without?
I might come from a one-car family who might not have been able to afford much in the way of money, but I got more in the way of love than I'd ever want in money. You need to get your priorities right.
lv2read... my dreams ??
My dreams may not yield to the ones you'd like me to have - of the dazzling lights of fame, fortune and expensive possessions.... no.... they're worth more than that.
>>By Tchock (Friday, 8 Jun 2007 02:58)
Flagg, Diane and Tchock...a few suggestions.
1. Newspapers wii lead you to job openings, but the car gets you to the interview. And in America there is NO excuse for being late for an interview.
2. More people = more cars = more jobs = more buildings = YOU MAY FILL IN THE BLANKS.
3. In America, dreams as in providing a better life for your children, a more comfortable living for your spouse (are any of you three married, or have children), being able to plan a nice vacation, being able to send a child or three (as I chose to) to Berkeley or UCLA or Harvard. I worked VERY hard to be able to do just that...now it is up to the children to make good of those opportunities...and my wife and I were very lucky there as well.
4. When you stop dreaming, you accept the status quo. We can always do better. We can learn more, learn faster, never give up, try harder. One thing that I truly disdain...is the expression: I could have made it, but never tried. I can accept the fact that I may have tried and failed....but to say that I really could have prevailed but never tried......just disgusts me!!
5. Living without....a car?? Never--absurd--ridiculous!!!
6. Karl Marx is irrevelant and has been for years.....ask your Dad(s).
7. Flagg..economic crash as in 1929? Are you serious? With all the safeguards in place? Why don't you try college and listen to an econ professor?
8. Diane...dreaming focusing on things important to you which may currently be out of reach. It may be general or specific. No limits (by definition) on dreams. No one here has limited dreams to making money!!!!
9. Flagg...the demise of Capitalist America?? No one knows the future, true. And anything could happen to America, and no one knows the future. I have no desire to address hypotheticals.
Thank all of you for your thoughtful replies.
>>By lv2read (Friday, 8 Jun 2007 06:33)
@ I worked VERY hard to be able to do just that...now it is up to the children to make good of those opportunities...and my wife and I were very lucky there as well.
Wow, that really sounds like the American dream. So you're happily married and your kids visit you every Father's Day. And you have grandchildren coming for sleep overs perhaps?
Since you asked this information from the others...be as fair to give the same information about yourself?
>>By Lynn (Friday, 8 Jun 2007 09:22)
>to say that I really could have prevailed but never tried......just disgusts me!!
The reason people sometimes don't try is because they don't know what they want. That's a sad but simple fact, there's nothing disgusting about it. You obviously have no idea what it's like to be young.
It was Tchock, not me, who talked about an economic crash in the next ten years. I'm not sure about that, but I think at some point in the next hundred years there's gonna be a catastrophe a lot worse than the Wall Street Crash. I mean we'll have to start again from scratch. And I'm not alone in that belief, strangely. Oh, and if you'd rather not think about hypothetical futures then we're lucky you're not in charge aren't we?
Tchock, that's great. I'd never thought of Mr. Creosote as a metaphor for the western world.
>>By Flagg (Friday, 8 Jun 2007 11:49)
Dear lv2read,
1 Don't have a car. Never been late for a job interview in my life. (Something which is also frowned upon here)
2 More people = more cars = more jobs = more buildings = yes, but this will not erase the deep rooted problems of society (US and UK), just allow people to continue to ignore them by pretending everything is going well.
3 I started my working life at the age of sixteen when i was in college, worked VERY hard to help my parents put me through University and have continued to work VERY hard to this day. The suggestion that i wouldn't want a nice holiday for my children, or send them to University is ridiculous. That isn't a dream, that's being a parent. With this statement you are belittling everyone (US and UK) who works VERY hard but in very low paid jobs - and before you comment about their acceptance of the status quo, if everyone went for a high paid job, who would work in these new malls and buildings you've been talking about? Where would your shops and cafes and bars get their labour? Who would clean the streets of your town? Who would collect your rubbish?
4 this is your opinion and i respect your right to have it, as you should also respect the fact that not everybody wants to achieve the same kinds of goals as you do.
5 I live without a car. The public transport system here is everything i need and I've never been afraid of walking in the street. Maybe if I lived in a country where people were allowed to buy guns for example, i would get a car and hide in it all day.
6 In the land of open debate, no one is irrelevant.
7 Ooh, I hope you didn't speak too soon. Captain of the Titanic: "this ship is unsinkable". ;-))
8 Fair enough, but you can understand my confusion. You seem to talk a lot about material wealth and the aquistion of money. What dreams do you have that don't centre around money?
>>By Diane76 (Friday, 8 Jun 2007 12:09)
Diane
<<<<What dreams do you have that don't centre around money?>>>>>
That which I hope for most is more time to do things. Like money, time should not be wasted. I love to read, but I only have so much time to read, can't read everything that I want to reas so therefore---I must be selective.
No one is irrelevant. Sorry, you are wrong. Time will pass you by if you aren't careful. Karl Marx and Freud have had many of their postulates have long been refuted and disproven.
Pls reread my #4----laziness will NEVER be in vogue. People that expect something for nothing will always reside at the bottom of the barrell.
Lynn
What on earth are you trying to say? It probably makes sense on the McNab board....but not to me. Why don't you be a little more direct...and a tad more positive. A point that I'm tryimg to make is that the life's experience of adolescents has much less depth than that of adults. Hence, this is not an American observation but a universal awareness. When Flagg and Tchock rattle on about economic times. and socialism....are they serious. What do they know or understand about wealth building, providing for a family, VOTING, the world leadership of America, the Cold War...I could go on and on.
Office politics....President Bush....the Jewish people...Hamas....blacks in America....really Lynn...Give equal time and credibility to their opinions...no way. Their point of view is considered in the context of their youth and inexperience.
Again, specifically what is your point.
>>By lv2read (Friday, 8 Jun 2007 13:15)
Hello lv2read,
>No one is irrelevant. Sorry, you are wrong. Time will pass you by if you aren't careful. Karl Marx and Freud have had many of their postulates have long been refuted and disproven.
Ah yes, but the same could be said of a great many people. And my time is passing at a suitably acceptable pace, but thanks for the warning! :)
>Pls reread my #4----laziness will NEVER be in vogue. People that expect something for nothing will always reside at the bottom of the barrell
Ah, apologies, I did misunderstand that one. I didn't quite get the laziness aspect from it. Do you mean lazy as in no ambition?
>>By Diane76 (Friday, 8 Jun 2007 14:31)
L2R
@ It probably makes sense on the McNab board....but not to me
Why not? I'm not speaking Chinese am I? It's a simple English question and I'm even explaining why I asked: because you asked the others about their married life and kids. I'm just asking you to give us the same information you ask others to give you.
@ Again, specifically what is your point.
Ok, I was making a point but that was just for you. If you claim you don't understand then that's just more of the crap this board is full of.
I'll start being more positive as soon as you start accepting that your values are just that: YOUR values and as soon as you start recognising that a lot of people are purchasing things in live you can't buy... like love, fulfillment and family, a peaceful world etc. I start being more positive as soon as you admit that we're not all like you, nor WANT to be. How hard that is for you says something about you, not the people who have been trying to show this to you for 48 pages already.
Hi Cindy, you make sense! Keep going :-)
>>By Lynn (Friday, 8 Jun 2007 15:12)
Oops, sorry - Cindy (???) = Diane
>>By Lynn (Friday, 8 Jun 2007 15:14)
48 pages sounds bad enough, but don't forget Brokeback Mountain. (For the benefit of Diane, this argument started on the Brokeback Mountain because he's homophobic too).
>the life's experience of adolescents has much less depth than that of adults... When Flagg and Tchock rattle on about economic times... etc etc... Their point of view is considered in the context of their youth and inexperience.
So we're wrong because we're young? Then why doesn't everyone your age agree with you?
>>By Flagg (Friday, 8 Jun 2007 18:04)
Just because they're dead and gone, doesn't mean that people from history are wrong nor are their opinions/theories any less valued. They might be wrong or whatever, but surely disproving something or someone's ideas are even more ground-breaking than getting it right first time ???
I only quoted Marx because it shows that capitalism will be the death of itself.
Imagine a sine wave - starts at zero and increases ever more until it reaches it's maximum value (1). Let's say this maximum value is absolute capitalism and materialism at it's most extreme. What happens after 90 degrees?? It decreases ever more until absolute communism and state control of everything, then increases again until capitalism..... Right now we're coming up to a big high on the positive y-axis. Do you understand ??
Nothing ever stays the same. The more materialistic, the more we buy, the more we build, the bigger cities get, the more cars there are on the road, the more we reclude into our ownselves, the more we push upon the workers, the more stress there is to obey the market place, the more choice we have the bigger the fall we're going to have. It can't continue like this. Maybe 10 years is a little extreme - but there are going to be some BIG - very big - changes within the next 10 years that will definitely effect the rest of the century.
We can't continue to drive as many cars as we have. If everyone has a car - the roads will become even more congested, pollution will increase, global warming speeded up (don't deny it - your hero Bush has just agreed that something needs to be done), traffic will come to a standstill, new roads will be built, we'll run out of room to put the roads, the noise, the fuel's runnning out, the demand for cars will too high for the supply and suddenly the supply will increase more than the demand and then BAM - inflation rises - and if you're not too careful a huge economic collapse.
Diane made a very important point that I was going to make earlier, but thought it too obvious for you. (Just as well she mentioned it !!)
In the grand scheme of everyone getting rich & working high paying executive jobs, sending their kids to uni & buying cars for every member of the family while their kids hang out at the shopping mall, who exactly makes the cars, sells you it, works at the mall, builds your house, makes your coffee at restaurants and hotels....???
Not everyone wants to go to or even get into uni. Are they failures??
Most important job is rubbish collecting. Without that society crumbles. Thanks to the Mob in Italy, it's happening there.
The glitch in your American Dream is that you assume there'll be someone there to pick up the pieces you can't be arsed picking up yourself. "Someone always cleans it up.... someone always does."
Yet again you're actually failing to describe the American Dream. All you've mentioned is that you want what's best for your family - I don't know a single person in the world who would want otherwise. Yet again, you're inadvertantly proving my point that the American Dream doesn't exist, but just a phrase conned up by someone to get the workers working harder. (You know... same thing happened in the Evil Empire you despise so much... Russia....... ironic how both left & right use the same method.)
And if mine & Flagg's opinion is worth any less than yours, then it's a good thing that we're in the majority. This world would be royally screwed if it were inhabited by people with your mindset. If you are so consumed with wisdom, dearest lv2read, then answer me this - what do YOU know of economics, infrastructure, office politics, black people in America, America's leadership - internal & as a global power, dreams, different cultures... .etc... What do you know of anything if you're head is so buried beneath the Sahara Desert it's emerging on the otherside of the globe ??? You THINK you know - you've been told by the newsreader on fox, maybe you've even ventured out to CNN... but have you gone out of your way to actually SEEK THE TRUTH ???? Probably not. If it's not given on a silver plator, then you're going to ignore it. After all - what has George Bush's cousin's news corporation got to gain from ever bending the truth & censoring it's viewpoint ???
>>By Tchock (Friday, 8 Jun 2007 19:30)
The other glitch in your American Dream being that people are only interested in wealth.
<They might be wrong or whatever, but surely disproving something or someone's ideas are even more ground-breaking than getting it right first time ????>
And before you get confused by this & start rambling about it being complete nonsense.....
Firstly right or wrong are not definites in this context.
Secondly by seeing ALL the viewpoints & ideas you'll get a more balanced & accurate viewpoint.
But I'll doubt you'll ever understand what I mean here. After all I'm eighteen years old & too stupid to be in this conversation.
>>By Tchock (Friday, 8 Jun 2007 19:58)
We're all stupid to be in this conversation T. ;-))
>>By Lynn (Saturday, 9 Jun 2007 00:38)
Yeah......this feels like spinning plates. I'm getting dizzy.
But hey - this could be a good argumentative writing program... we should market it !!
No matter what lv2read won't agree - so you keep on arguing !!
Improve your skills !!! ;)
>>By Tchock (Saturday, 9 Jun 2007 00:47)
Oh and by the way L, Freud's theories have never been disproved. They can't be proved or disproved, that's the problem with them.
>>By Flagg (Saturday, 9 Jun 2007 01:09)
BUT they're still taught and applied to patients' situations, and if you ask a layperson to name a psychologist then (if they can name one) it'll almost certainly be Freud. Just like if you ask someone to name a communist they'll probably say Lenin or Marx. People don't automatically become 'irrelevant' when they die. Honestly you still surprise me with the amount of shit you talk.
But if that doesn't convince you, tell me Mr. Patriotic... is George Washington irrelevant?
>>By Flagg (Saturday, 9 Jun 2007 01:19)
Thanks Lynn,
Wow, that's the first time anyone has accused me of making sense! ;)
>We're all stupid to be in this conversation
lol. Ah yes, but it gives me something to do when it's too rainy to garden....
>>By Diane76 (Saturday, 9 Jun 2007 13:53)
All quiet on the Western Front........
>>By Tchock (Sunday, 10 Jun 2007 20:04)
The Western Front's rep, yours truly, has taken a two day pleasure trip and just returned. Some observations....
Lynn...you have absolutely gone bonkers. You've got to be talking tongue in cheek. Two of those in agreement with you must be home by nine, and Diane must be confused or something.
Diane.....In your face homosexuality is offensive, vulgar and tasteless. And, if you don't agree with that, YOU are in the minority. And in, anything goes Amsterdam, just as is said by many tourists that visit the city, anything goes. Again, a tiny, tiny minority of living humans will abide by those morals.
Now Diane, are you a moderate such as myself...or are you an extremist? It is your right to select any position. I wasw king of hoping that you'd provide some balance to the board. You appear to be as extreme as Lynn ( who believes that Global Warming will horribly breach continental shelf borders of all countries within 10-20 years. Way off, w a y off. Or you may suiffer Tchock's illusions with communism and socialism??? She has been so focused since age 13. Maybe 15......both foolish nontheless. Or you could be like Flagg, but I doubt it. Flagg will say something is black if I say it is white. He is distrustful of anyone over 25 I believe. And he was chased off the board by someone mpre dirty and gross than he was. He cut and ran. And I was the last person standing. And it was I that plead(ed?) for all to return. But there was a catch....bo dirtry words, vulgarity allowed. And other than Flagg, the hardest sell was to Anything Goes Lynn. If you can believe this, Lynn and I debated whether or not "fuck' (pls excuse me) was acceotable language her. Well reason won out---just wanted to provide some background here to explain why we need some moderates here. Again, welcome aboard.
>>By lv2read (Monday, 11 Jun 2007 01:07)
>Diane.....In your face homosexuality is offensive, vulgar and tasteless. And, if you don't agree with that, YOU are in the minority. And in, anything goes Amsterdam, just as is said by many tourists that visit the city, anything goes. Again, a tiny, tiny minority of living humans will abide by those morals.
?:-) I didn't say anything about homosexuality? Where did this come from????
As for being moderate or extremist - I suppose it depends on who is judging me ;) I try to put my points across from what I hope is a personal and reasonable standpoint. I will admit if I'm wrong, but I'll also react to points I think are wrong (in my humble opinion). I'm new to this board and I try to respect everyone's opinions, even when it's really difficult. I'm not like anyone here - I am my own woman! It's one of the most wonderful aspects of the human race - infinite diversity in infinite combinations.
P.S. I don't mind the word 'fuck', it's the word 'cunt' I have a problem with.
>>By Diane76 (Monday, 11 Jun 2007 02:16)
I really can't be bothered trying to explain for the 100th time that I'm NOT a communist, but a liberal-socialist (if you would actually like to name what I call COMMON SENSE POLITICS).
Homosexuality. Now I can understand it if you find it may be a *little uncomfortable* - after all you were brought up in a society were homosexuality was a BIG taboo - and, certainly in a christian enviroment, very heavily beaten out of you, if you happend to be gay/lesbian. My generation - save the exception of a prejudiced thugs - are quite at ease with it. I certainly don't feel uncomfortable at all - in fact, I don't feel anything when I see a gay couple or whatever. There is no difference between a straight relationship and a gay relationship. *In Your Face Homosexuality*. How many times a day do you see a woman & a man holding hands, kissing, making out or whatever.... how many times do you see male-female "sex" scenes in hollywood films?? Now I don't want to look at two people making out or whatever- REGARDLESS of whether their same-sex or not. It doesn't really make a difference.
Gay people will do what they want to do - it's fuck all to do with us, just as it's fuck all to do with us what the rest of humanity gets up to with their chosen partner. You wouldn't get your knickers in a twist over a man & a woman, but you probably would with two men or two women. What difference does it make to you?? None, get over it. The rest of us have accepted it & moved on.
Not speaking for Diane of course, but her posts have seemed pretty reasonable. Well thought out responses & ideas - and being 31 years old, I'm sure she's more than capable of making up her own mind. But whether or not she's a "moderate like you" is a different matter. Firstly, you use the word "moderate" VERY loosely. Try "fairly right wing politically, economically- capitalist, but not quite bordering on nazism".
>>By Tchock (Monday, 11 Jun 2007 02:24)
Diane
Read Flagg somewhere, but very recent, above and his reference to my being homophobic. 7% of the population is gay---of that number a small percentage choose that lifestyly willingly and without genetic irregularities.
Questionable Language....Flagg wrote that JustJohn was a cunt. I suggested that he find another word. Real simple...big people here this go round. And he is doing well.
Re Tchock...what kind of school system would indoctrinate a thirteen, fourteen, fifteen year old into radical communist/socialist politics? Would you allow that kind of instruction for your children?
Read her earlier posts re Lenin---not the latter ones where she backpedals a bit.
When I say moderate. are you beginning to see what I mean?
>>By lv2read (Monday, 11 Jun 2007 06:10)
I haven't "backpedaled" my views on communism, you just didn't get them. As per usual, you assumed that because I actually understood the concept, and that I know my history about Communist Russia and that I might actually understand the decisions Lenin made and how Stalin was allowed to remain in power, and the reasons why it became such a brutal regime, because I understood the points you didn't, that therefore I was a card-carrying communist.
What kind of school system would indoctrinate....communist/socialist politics?
Not mine !!!
Firstly - communism has N.E.V.E.R been introduced into this world, due to the fact that it can't be. It's just an idea. Communism - as you know it - is cruel and brutal and feared. But that would be a regime - not a political idea. Stalin was not a communist - he was a paranoid, insecure man who wanted power and adoration. He didn't understand the first thing about communism.
And if you can't admit that Lenin was intelligent, then you obviously haven't read anything about him. He was very intelligent, as was Hitler.
Socialism - a little bit more right wing, allowing a free market but more benefits for the whole populatinon rather than just a few. A few flaws in the funding aspect, but over all what exactly is wrong with it?? Apologies if I'm not a shark just out for myself.
Business is great - our economies rely on it. What I *don't* like is when a big corporation can lobby a government into doing it's bidding, or when it mistreats it's employees or when it destroys other competition like many of these big supermarkets have done - cheap manufactured mass produced shite replacing individuality.
Three words: Common Sense Politics.
You know what that means? Probably not. It doesn't strictly adhered to any of the sections of politics - communist, socialist, conservative, whatever. It's called "making one's own mind up with sensible reasoning". You should try it sometime.
>>By Tchock (Monday, 11 Jun 2007 11:21)
I am really offended by the term "Anything Goes Lynn"
>>By Lynn (Monday, 11 Jun 2007 11:28)
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