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Discussion: Jack I think you have missed the point agqain lv2read, oh well. >>By Ctina so.... "The world would do well to follow America and UK tradition---especially that of separation of church and state." lv2contradictself and "Israel will survive, Israel will continue to exist as a Jewish state. Period. The one man one vote principal will long be suspended prior to....allowing any group to overturn the nature of the Jewish state." lv2contradictself So a good role model is for all states to be secular democracies, unless that state happens to be jewish?!?!?!? >>By planet ear Deaf Ear, Israel was created as a Jewish state...Hamas will NEVER be successful in overturning that. Anti-Semites beware. >>By lv2read Is anyone else confused about the charter of Israel? Are mthere any other kooks in the UK that question Israel's right to exist? Could we hear from some mature people? Apologists from Scotland, adolescents from England...who says this board is only for the immature? Is it up for debate here whether or not the Holocast really existed? Please grow up group. Some answers for you.. America is the shining light on the hill. Israel will be defended at all costs. Communism is dead and buried. Iran destabilizes the Middle East. Need I go on? >>By lv2read >Is anyone else confused about the charter of Israel? Well, it could be it's just you. Under the Balfour Declaration, endorsed by the League of Nations and subsequently by the USA, the UK government""view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people"..."it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine" Or are you referring to some other "charter"? >Is it up for debate here whether or not the Holocast really existed? I have not seen any sign of that particular odious revisionism on this board so I'd say no. However I do think it worth pointing out that in fact, although the Jewish race were clearly the principle group to suffer under the Nazis they weren't alone. The first concerntration camp at Dachau also housed communists, trade unionists, homosexuals, the mentally ill, vagrants etc. Regardless, that you raise such a topic in such a fashion is indicative of your usual bullying on this board. Regarding the benefits to humanity as a whole that could result from a move towards secular democracies for nation states, i think it self-evident that with our currently increasing world population and and increasing mobility of populations, that the viability or desirability of trying to maintain states as theocracies or similarly mono-cultural environments is extremely dubious in the long-term. You appear to advocate this so strongly as the path for other nations that you are prepared to sanction or even advocate military action to enforce it immediately. Against this background I am inclined to find your apparent self-serving hypocrisy with regard to Israel utterly contemptible. It appears you're not interesting in mature factually-based debate but in trying to manouvre your (frequently ill-considered) opinions to the top of the heap through their consist reiteration and personal attacks on other participants. We have already had your opinions many times, if you were interested and capable of holding your own in mature debate you would surely tell us WHY you hold your opinions, this is the way to potentially change our minds or have your opinion respected. Or is it that you're simply not intellectually or educationally up to the task? I expect nothing but your usual abuse and half-baked notions as a response but would welcome a surprise! :)) >>By planet ear Deaf Ear, Israel will remain a Jewish state. Intellectually you can't seem to square with this. If the Arabs had their way, the Jewish sector would be an isolated slum. Are you a betting man? Jews (and non Jews) everywhere support a Jewish Israel. The UN created th State od Israel for the Jewish people and it remains true to its charter. Where are you confused? >>By lv2read Lv2bs!!!!! I'm rapidly forming the opinion that you actually don't know the history of Israel. Put our minds at rest and post a link to this mysterious "charter" >>By planet ear Deaf Ear, Evidently anti-semites come fom all countries...even friendly ones. It must be confusing to you that your govrnment is such a staunch supporter of Israel. But then again you must be confused by the UK's censure of the peace loving Iran. But you are buoyed by the support of immature Tchock and Flagg whose voicesa don't count for anythimg. It is sad that your view of things is easily influenced by childish apoloists from Scotland and immatures males from London. Discodant muic is one thing...discordant logic quite another. >>By lv2read Good grief! You're like a little disingenuous Pol Pot proclaiming 1948 as Year Zero aren't you? And either dishonest or comically ignorant given your heritage. Most of UK's acts in the inter-world- war period were to keep Jewish immigration to Palestine to a limit acceptable within the Balfour Declaration's stated aims so as not to damage relationships with Arab nations. Post war USA congress pulled the financial plug on UK and strong-armed UK into handing Palestine to UN in order to placate US opinion given the Jewish survivors desire to seize Palestinian land as a Jewish homeland. So thanks for destabilizing the Middle East to placate a short term public opinion problem good ol' USA! Good Job! Cheers! Like there was no other bit of world that could have possibly sufficed! Bit of Utah maybe? Partioning Germany maybe? No sod it.... too much trouble when you've an election to fight soon.... My position is not anti-semetic. It is not pro-Zionist. Which is also a position held by many Jews themselves and so hardly anti-semetic. So please stop demonstrating your ignorance and belligerence at every opportunity. You remain an utter hypocite in most readers eyes unless you can give some reasoned justification for excluding Israel from your call for nations to become secular democracies. I imagine you'll stay that way. Still waiting for you to concede that the position of both our governments re 1967 occupied territories is as in UN security council res 242, ie briefly Israel is obliged to stop building settlements there immediately and to negotiate the OTs return to Palestine in exchange for peace. 43 years is enough stalling already. This is the mainstream view. You are the one holding the eccentric view. >>By planet ear Deaf Ear, Why should Israel return captured territory? Israel was not the aggresasaor in the 1967 War. Where are you coming from? >>By lv2read Deaf Ear, You silence is deafening. Why should Israel return captured territory? When Hamas accepts the legitimacy of Israel, things will improve for the non-Israeli settlers. Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state ain't on the table. What is your problem? >>By lv2read >Israel was not the aggresasaor in the 1967 War The premise of your question is ridiculous. "The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches did not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him." Menachim Begin >>By planet ear Or from a military man "To pretend that the Egyptian forces massed on our frontiers were in a position to threaten the existence of Israel constitutes an insult not only to the intelligence of anyone capable of analyzing this sort of situation, but above all an insult to the Zahal [Israeli army]." General Matityahu Peled, cited in Ha’aretz, March 19, 1972. Or to look at it another way, the Israeli launched an attack on Egypt in it's strike, and took on and defeated Jordan and Syria...all in six days... No sane person can seriously suggest the other parties were seriously able to threaten Israel. >>By planet ear "non-Israeli settlers" Congratulations lv2rewritehistoryforpoliticaladvantage. Best example of Orwellian Newspeak I have yet encountered. >>By planet ear So Israel is not surrounded by hostile neighbors. Perhaps you should get your new freom another source than the Communist Daily Worker. Are you suggesting that Hama is a good neighbor and wishes Israel no harm? I think even Flagg and Tchock would be disapointed in you now. Ear, it is time to grow up. Thank goodness that the UK is not made up of citizens like you! >>By lv2read Silly. >>By planet ear Anyone else in the UK catch the last QI? Apparently the longer an internet argument goes on for, the chances of Hitler or Nazism being mentioned tends to one. Sound familiar? Also, the phrase - "Non-israeli settlers"... erm, weren't the Palestinians there first? Not that we need to belittle our arguments to "who was there first.... or who killed who first..." I have to admit I don't know as much about this as planet ear, but I could find out the background on how the state of Israel was created easy enough - with an open mind and all. But what I do know about the situation is that that wall didn't build itself; in the last "war" "bloodbath" the "kind" Israeli's sent out leaflets telling people to leave their building hours before they bombed the shit out of it; that Israel put blockades on the Palestinians - food not being allowed through on some occasions. The palestinians aren't perfect themselves though. Both sides have lost a lot due to this conflict. However, with the way they are treated by the Israelis is it any wonder that there are people out there willing to fight back? As for hostile neighbours..... Well I've got no references for the Egyptian Army... however, I have heard that Israel has one of the best airforces in the world? So by comparison, I would assume that their neighbours may not be so much of a challenge? But then again, this response will get completely ignored or deemed communistic or immature or some other misspelt attempt at insolence. However, I've wasted ten minutes on this already, so I may as well just hit save. Happy New Year & all that stuff by the way guys . >>By Tchock Israel was creatws for the Jewish people. Yes some were displaced. Israel won't be going away, or swall0owed up or blended out of existence. There are many large countries made up of Muslim constitutents. A for Ear being informed....what a joke. His sources are dissident sources....you can always find those that dissent. >>By lv2read Board, Which of you views things from the American point of view? Which of you views Hamas as the perpetrator of much violence towards Israel? Which of you views the leftest pablum of Ear, Flagg and Tchock as immature and uninformed? It is about time to say so!!! >>By lv2read >>Discodant muic is one thing...discordant logic quite another. Let me tell you about dischordant (there's an h) logic: Wind the clock back a few years. Lebanon and Israel are having an argument, during which both sides do some nasty things. I and a friend of mine use this board to air a view we share, which is that Israel's actions (like firing rockets into areas with civilian populations) should be unacceptable to civilised nations, and that we are angry about media establishments, especially North American ones, taking a very one-sided view of the whole situation. Then based on that, *you* decide that we think Israel has no right to exist and that we have something against Jews. So how exactly does a concern for the lives of civilians caught up in warfare, suggest anti-semitism? Where is the link? Please explain the logic for me. Your logic is not only dischordant, it's downright offensive. >>By Flagg Alright, I'll speak up. I think it's fucking time some of you folks fucking got over yourselves. It's disgusting to listen to you talk about war and people being killed like it's some kind of contest - who's right, who's well informed, who talks a lot of bollocks. Main thing is, people died, they still do, and all of you are lucky to live in a place where death is not an immediate threat, except for the old, the sick, and drunk drivers. And all you have to do is quarrel over who has the best and truest info on who started the whole thing (sorry if I don't read each and every single page of this, there may be some valid points, but I think you've come to an end here. Leave it be and go home). >>By Mizzi Wait. Just ignore that. I'm going back in time to five minutes ago, and not get worked up about this. It's not my slice of cake. There. Continue. >>By Mizzi
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