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| Discussion: Jack Hello lv2read, >Does it need to be proven to you that the UK has too many people on the dole?? Firstly, it would be interesting to know how many you think is too many. In a country where we have a population of well over 60 million, the claimant count for unemployment benefit was around 890,000 last month. This figure has fallen continuously over the past year. Realistically, I don't think this is such an abhorrant figure if you compare it to the same problem in other countries. I have bigger issues with my tax money being spent in other areas, like the 'war' in Iraq for example. Speaking as an adult and most definitely not a kid. Secondly, as a matter of interest, can you please tell me how long ago you visited Liverpool and for how long? Have you visited anywhere else in the UK? All this talk about Liverpool is intriguing to me as I know the city well. My Grandfather was a Liverpudlian :-) >>By Diane76 Dear Diane: I'll start with the last point made. Have been to LiverPOOL on three occasions, the first being in 1986 when I stayed off and on for 6 months. The vast amount of 'council housing' and terrible unemployment was in your face. Terrible. The slums were disenchanting, the local faire (food/lodging) but the people engaging and very likeable. Much enjoyed my stay. But I know slums when I see them. Secondly, your tax money AIN'T being wasted in Iraq--international terrorism is a threat to the UK as well as the USA. The dole has many facets in the UK. What percentage of your people are on the dole one way or another? What struck me about England more than anything else was the apparent lack of ambition. I believe there is a correlation between the huge numbers on the dole and the rather low ambition index. In America an individual my collect unemployment benefits for 26 weeks--no longer. What is the time limit in the UK? Our message is clear...you aren't living off society for long. How do you motivate people to look for and to accept work? >>By lv2read Diane76....did you mention gardening in your profile?? >>By lv2read Dear lv2rd Right, so your basing your argument on what you saw 20 years ago when Margaret Thatcher was destroying British Industry and causing mass unemployment. Things have moved on. Have you been there recently? I'm sure the liverpPUDlians i know would welcome you with open arms if i told them what you've been spouting - it's unfair to single them out. SECONDLY, using my tax money to kill innocent men and women just so GWB can finish what his daddy started is a waste. Give me proof that the Iraqi people in general have ANYTHING to do with international terrorism. Hang on a minute - LOW AMBITION INDEX?????? Aww, bless. I suggest you take a year or so out, travel around the poorest regions of your country and then come back and ask about low ambition. Poor and fed up is poor and fed up no matter what country you're in! P.S. Is gardening a sign of low ambition or something? What has that got to do with anything???? >>By Diane76 In America an individual my collect unemployment benefits for 26 weeks> We had the same here in Britain.... a few years short of a century ago. Yes, Diane, apparently gardening IS a sign of low ambition - and "no one but nobody gardens".... heaven forbid that lv2read is wrong about something. Oh, and Diane... welcome to the Jack Board.... P.S - get used to saying "What has that got to do with anything???" it's kinda like our motto on here....... ;) And lv2read......... I will contact Berkeley after my exam results are published. But I'm not expecting/hoping for much if I do apply. >>By Tchock Thanks Tchock! Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to replant my begonias.... :-D >>By Diane76 <Secondly, your tax money AIN'T being wasted in Iraq--international terrorism is a threat to the UK as well as the USA.> Hang on, I thought it was about liberating an oppressed people ????? http://dictionary.reference.com/ browse/liverpudlian And may Thor strike us all down if dictionary.com is wrong. >>By Tchock Diane What did Ms. Thatcher do to destroy capitaliasm, free enterprise and world trade for the UK. Are you one of the thirty something liberals that don't know when to be quiet?? Who are you listening to? BTW, where are the terrorists? Are they in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran.....or are they the good guys? <<<And may Thor strike us all down if dictionary.com is wrong.>>>>> Well if you can find the words maths and spelt there, I'd find another reference. (kidding only) What is it about this site that attracts adolescents, liberals and 80's throwbacks?? >>By lv2read >What did Ms. Thatcher do to destroy capitaliasm, free enterprise and world trade for the UK. Are you one of the thirty something liberals that don't know when to be quiet?? Who are you listening to? I didn't say anything about capitalism, free enterprise or world trade lv2read. You were commenting on unemployment. I made the point that unemployment was rife at a particular point in time because of certain measures that Thatcher was taking. I don't have to listen to anyone, love, i grew up in it. I come from what was once an industrial area, and from what can only be described as good working class stock. No, Thatcher didn't destroy capitalism, the rich were getting richer; however, she did destroy the spirit of a great many industry workers who were left unable to feed their families properly. Are you suggesting everyone in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran are terrorists? If so, you have a very blinkered world view. I've met quite a few people from these countries and - here's the shocker! - they're just like you and me. Maybe I am a Liberal, but I prefer the term open-minded. And please don't suggest that i be quiet again, i have as much right to my opinion as everyone else. >>By Diane76 >Are you one of the thirty something liberals that don't know when to be quiet?? WOW! You've really, REALLY outdone yourself this time L. I nearly laughed out loud. You tell me and Tchock that any adult apart from Planet Ear would take your side, then... along comes an adult who appears not to be taking your side, and lo and behold: "Oh, you must be one of those LIBERAL adults, you don't count." I suppose anyone over FORTY would agree with you though, right? It may surprise you L2R old buddy, but WITHIN the UK, Margaret Thatcher is not a particularly well-liked or fondly-remembered figure, among most people. Glad to have you on board Diane. Just beware: arguing with this guy takes an awful lot of mental stamina. >>By Flagg Thanks Flagg. I've only just warmed up ;) >>By Diane76 I am very glad to hear it. I was almost losing hope ^^ >>By Flagg <BTW, where are the terrorists? Are they in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran.....or are they the good guys?> Perhaps Fox News or CNN didn't broadcast the huge protests in Pakistan against the Taliban. Maybe the tens-of-thousands of liberal people gathered in Lahore or Kirachi swept over you.... but they were protesting AGAINST the Taliban's friendship with their government. Now, I know I may only have lived a few short years under Maggie's reign, but I learnt enough later on to know that not a lot of people in Britain look back with nostalgia for the time when she was Prime Minister. Why, in a recent albeit crappy tv show of Greatest Britons or something, Maggie came BEHIND Robbie Williams in "Greatest Living Britain". Due to her decision to raise VAT to 15% and increase interest rates, she caused many business to suffer and unemployment to DOUBLE to 2million. Interest rates peaked at 18%, unemployment rose to 5million, manufacturing output had dropped 30% within 5 years, she reduced the power of trade unions, closed down the coal industry using devious tactics, privatising the coal mines she didn't shut down.... the Falklands... and not to mention her son's an arms dealer. <What is it about this site that attracts adolescents, liberals and 80's throwbacks??> Well me and Flagg are adolescents yes..... are we not allowed on the big-people's discussion board ?? Liberals......oh sorry.......only right wing capitalists allowed as well ??? 80s Throwbacks ??!?!! Tell me - why is it that every new person on the block upsets you... why is it they're more often than not a liberal (with the exception of Just Jon who was just an idiot).......where are the hoardes of capitalist bushites galloping over each other to aid your fight against the puny liberals ??? >>By Tchock Dear All of the above. It isn't your fault Tchock and you may or may not remember, but the slowdown and high cost of money during Ms. Thatcher's period in office was a small part of a world wide slump.....America, Russia, japan.....got the idea???? were all affected, Diane....when Bushes' father was President....you were 8-9 yrs of age....not yet a woman as Brittany Spears touts....roughly the time of Tchocks' dallyance with Marxist' socialism. Flagg....what is the voting age in the UK??? I wonder why??? What is sad Flagg is that you'll grow up v e r y r e l u c t a n t l y. You said something about your Dad working many terrible (my words not yours) jobs---one after the other. I'd sure like to know what he thinks about your opinion. Do you have any younger siblings? Please don't pass on your hangups to them as they will develop many on their own. >>By lv2read >Diane....when Bushes' father was President....you were 8-9 yrs of age....not yet a woman as Brittany Spears touts....roughly the time of Tchocks' dallyance with Marxist' socialism. Erm, Bushes' father became president in 1989 - I was thirteen. Unfortunately I was considered old enough to lose my cousin to the First Gulf War, you patronising, arrogant twit. >>By Diane76 Apologies for my use of the word twit. Please read person instead. I just got a tad riled :) >>By Diane76 My dad tells me he has a lot of respect for my opinions. He shares many of them. You should hear him talk about Microsoft. I realize you will never agree with us, but could you try to accept that some people do? Many people, in fact. People who think Bush's war is wrong; people who think capitalism is out of hand; people who think privatization is in most cases a bad thing; people who have no desire to own an SUV. There are a great many of us, and age or upbringing really has nothing to do with it. When you accept this and stop talking to us like you'd talk to the Flat Earth Society, we will be able to take you seriously. >>By Flagg Diane People that harbor insurgents aren't innocent. Who tells you otherwise. Do you understand the danger of religious fundamentalism? Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran are hot beds of jihadist activity. Not good. Pluralistic societies.......or insular religious enclaves within borders?? The American way and the British way, i.e. SEPARATION of church and state is a good lesson for them all. What about the rights of the Jews (like myself), the Mormons and the Catholics in their society? How about the women of the Taliban...what about a hundred other things? You were 13 when the firt Pres Bush was our leader. Does that mean you were 9 (???) when he was elected? And you 'understand' the former President Bush?? Liberal...openminded. Not true!! Liberals are the most intolerant people that I know.....and your use of the word openminded (implying that the others are closeminded) is proof of that. Even though, I wholeheartedly welcome you to the board. >>By lv2read Thanks lv2read, I enjoy a good old debate.... A) I was calling myself open minded. Alone. And I would never claim to be 100% tolerant - I'm a human being! For example, I'm intolerant of blatantly ignorant people. B) There are A LOT of people in the countries we have mentioned, a very small number of them may be harboring insurgents but I refuse to condemn a whole nation of people for the ills of a few. C) I didn't claim to understand the former President Bush. I only said that the present President Bush wanted to finish what his daddy started. Give me proof that that ain't so. :) P.S. For homework, I would like the class to give examples of religious fundamentalism in the US. 500 words. A4 paper only. >>By Diane76 Intolerant some liberals may be, but that's not your real problem with them is it? What you really can't stand about liberals is that they disagree with you. By the way, did you notice my last post? I just wondered since you completely ignored it. >>By Flagg http://photo.itc.nps.gov/storage/im [delete the space] ages/officials/Officials-Full.00001.html Diane, will this lose marks for being too damn obvious? >>By Flagg Flagg, ten out of ten for humour and creativity (in other words, making me laugh!) >>By Diane76 Déja Vu Firstly, the tale of the Taliban, the West and Hypocrisy. Now I believe the Taliban has been organised for a LOT longer than the six years since the US decided to invade Afghanistan. Funnily enough, before 9/11 the Taliban seemed to be ok in the eyes of the Western Governments. Many people may have been disgruntled by its existence, but nothing too media-worthy to bring it up before the judge, jury & executioner - i'e the government. But all of a sudden the US decides - for debateable reasons - to invade Afghanistan & remove the Taliban (albeit unsuccessfully) from the country. Suddenly it wasn't ok for such a brutal regime to exist. If people who harbour insurgents aren't innocent, then America is VERY corrupt. Who exactly hired Bin Laden in the first place to help kick the Russians out of Afghanistan... can't have been the CIA. And no, they didn't hire Saddam Hussein to assassinate the then leader of Iraq... It wasn't George Bush's company & friends who attempted to broker a deal between the Taliban, worth BILLIONS, over oil. Countries Harbouring Insurgents. Well we're all guilty then. And perhaps you need to get out there & talk to people - because certainly in Pakistan the muslims there are crying out for the seperation of religion & church. If you don't want to re-read my post on the massive protests they had, then at least search the bbc news online archives for a more detailed version. The vast majority of people there are LIBERAL. But you'd have a problem with that anyway. The American/British Way of seperation of church and state..... It might not all be damnation as part of the laws, but there's still a connection, if a very thin one. Especially in America. Yes, we were all affected by a global economic slump, but Maggie didn't have to make it worse did she? What about other dictatorships in the world.......what of Zimbabwe... what of the Sudan... what of all the terrible crimes against humanity in the countries lacking in oil... how easily the western media forgets Sierra Leon, the starving refugees of Dafur, the sickening crimes committed by regimes and dictators and bloody civil wars....... lv2read, here's some help with the maths..... George Bush (senior) was elected into office in 1989. Diane - if you've not consulted her profile - has by no mere coincidence, called herself Diane76 due to the fact that her birth year was 1976. 89 minus 76 = 13. Which means, she was thirteen when he was President. Liberals most intolerant people you know ??? If you mean *us* by which you mean we don't agree with you.......... The most intolerent people are those who are ignorant & dogmatic.... oh But on the other hand, intolerent people sometimes can be intolerent for the very fact that ignorant & dogmatic people exist....... so we're all intolerent. >>By Tchock * sorry, when i said "religion & church" i meant state........ >>By Tchock Too many points to address....but I'll assist with a few. Jihadists inthe US....have no idea. But, conservative Christain groups as in Pentacostals are way out there BUT keep to themselves. However I'd classify Scientologists as the most radical....yet they pose no threat to anyone. Tchock..everything else you wrote was nonsense AND immature. Consider this---ask your father. When Fidel came to power in 1959 (with support from the US), we believed that we had an ally. However he changed radically and our position changed. To you that may be contradictory---but big people understand that. Help with me with math....Flagg, she's serious. Please. George Bush was VP prior to becomingPres....and Director of trhe CIA prior to then...right close to the time of Diane's birth. ??????? >>By lv2read Saddam Hussein and the Taliban were brutal regimes PRIOR to the US acknowledging them as part of the "axis of evil" - they were ALLIES while the regimes were instilling fear & killing their own people. The US supplied them both with arms. There was NO sudden out of the blue bolt of lightning character change in these regimes. Yet the US regards Gedaffi and the Saudi Royal Family as allies ??? People like Idi Amin were never brought to justice for his crimes against humanity...... funny how only certain dictators ever see any justice. Please tell me why Tianamen Square was acceptable yet suddenly Saddam was not? 1953: U.S. overthrows Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq of Iran. U.S. installs Shah as dictator. 1954: U.S. overthrows democratically-elected President Arbenz of Guatemala. 200,000 civilians killed. 1963: U.S. backs assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem. 1963-1975: American military kills 4 million people in Southeast Asia. September 11, 1973: U.S. stages coup in Chile. Democratically-elected President Salvador Allende assassinated. Dictator Augusto Pinochet installed. 5,000 Chileans murdered. 1977: U.S. backs military rulers of El Salvador. 70,000 Salvadorans and four American nuns killed. 1980's: U.S. trains Osama bin Laden and fellow terrorists to kill Soviets. CIA gives them $3 billion. 1981: Reagan administration trains and funds "contras." 30,000 Nicaraguans die. 1982: U.S. provides billions of dollars in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians. 1983: The White House secretly gives Iran weapons to kill Iraqis. 1989: CIA agent Manuel Noriega (also serving as President of Panama) disobeys orders from Washington. U.S. invades Panama and removes Noriega. 3,000 Panamanian civilian casualties. 1990: Iraq invades Kuwait with weapons from U.S. 1991: U.S. enters Iraq. Bush reinstates dictator of Kuwait. 1998: Clinton bombs "weapons factory" in Sudan. Factory turns out to be making aspirin. 1991: American planes bomb Iraq on a weekly basis. U.N. estimates 500,000 Iraqi children die from bombing and sanctions. 2000-01: U.S. gives Taliban-ruled Afghanistan $245 million in "aid." Sept. 11, 2001: Osama bin Laden uses his expert CIA training to murder 3,000 people. "Tchock..everything else you wrote was nonsense AND immature." By which you mean I have a valid point. What part of my post was nonsense?? It's all based on fact - an idea you fail to grasp. Immature ?? You're only going to have a limited time to use that phrase - but I suppose anyone younger than you & disagrees with you is immature & anyone older than you & disagrees with you has gone senile? Tell me do you have a problem with people who - through no fault of their own - were born slightly before or after a given event, but have a keen enthusiasm for knowledge on what happened before they graduated high school, and have since finding this enthusiasm read a book or an article on the matter?? Apparently none of us are qualified to comment save you who - by the way - in history would be regarded with some sceptism, being a "primary source" who has been influenced through only one media stream. And regarding Scientology - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/ DELETE hi/world/americas/6650545.stm >>By Tchock Tchock Above almost everything written from a hostile (i.e. mean) point of view. How old were YOU when Tienemen Square exploded. Perhaps you've forgotten but the US AND Great Britain assailed the Communists and demanded changes in their 'democracy.' However someone led you to believe otherwise. Could it be your communist/socialist mentor? Utter nonsense...Osama bin Laden, Russian invasion of Afghanistan...President Carter's harsh actions against the Russians...support by the British (you might ask your parents)...we've always taken the high road...and with British support. I have a problem with socialists of all persuasion,communists (if there are any left) anywhere, and especially young people trhat spout their virtues....you have much, much to experience and to learn. 1990...do you mean that the US ran Iraq out of Kuwait? Did I miss it?? And, again, Liverpool has no slums?? And the UK has relatively few people living on the dole. Right?? Who's putting on whom? Scientologh...precisely what is your non-poing? >>By lv2read Dear lv2read, Well, first you said: >Diane....when Bushes' father was President....you were 8-9 yrs of age.... And then... >George Bush was VP prior to becomingPres....and Director of trhe CIA prior to then...right close to the time of Diane's birth. ??????? (What's this got to do with anything?????!!!!) It takes maturity and strength of character to admit you made a mistake. If you'd forgotten what year Bush Senior became president, or can't do maths, just admit it and we can move on. ;) >>By Diane76 >When Fidel came to power in 1959 (with support from the US), we believed that we had an ally. However he changed radically and our position changed. You actually made a counter-argument. Congratulations. About communism, I'd like to go back to a point I made a while ago that you never answered (surprise surprise). I said if the Russians had won the cold war or if the original communists' dreams of communist governments springing up all over the world had been realized, and America and Britain were communist countries now... I think you would be railing against capitalism and we'd be defending it. Do you see what I mean? >>By Flagg Flagg....First point...Russia did not win the Cold War...Ronald Reagan, almost single handily brought about the downfall of the Soviet Union as your parents knew it. He spent them into oblivion, they tried to keep up amd bankrupted their system....what a shame but lucky for you and me and our children. Point Two...America as your parent know it is indistinguishable from capitalism. And, no, I don't follow what you are saying. Communism IS slavery---it could never have won out. And of all the countries in the world, which faced off the communists....rest my case. And does the free world look up to America?? Only if they are smart and wise. And is America's resolve clear?? Ask Libya's Kadaffy, Castro's Cube, Hugo Chavez of Venezuela, Ortega of Nicawagua (sp), Breznev of the former Soviet Union. Saddam and we could go on and on, say like the Emperor of Japan, Adolph Hitler, Honnicker of East Germany. Reagan said it best...I don't issue warnings...Kadaffy will vouch for that!!! And our two best friends during that turmoil....the UK and Israel. >>By lv2read |