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Discussion: Jack Jack? Who the heck is Jack? >>By Mealah L2R In answer to your question, the US should not disarm Iran, it hasn't got the capability without resorting to Nuclear weapons. It would only screw things up and cause untold thousands of more deaths If the Iranian revolutionary council is hellbent on wiping Israel off the face of the planet, then Israel should replicate what it did in 1981 with a precise surgical precison aerial attack on the Nuclear reactor(s) which pose a threat.... Isreal has proved beyond doubt that it is Militarily a far superior force than the US (if you actually discount the sheer numbers of the US military that is....i'm talking quality here)... just consider Entebbe and the forementioned iraq attack...no fuss, no fanfare, no blustering, no wasting time with threats and dogma..just get in there do the job and come home....something that the US has never ever been able to do. Now a question for you, I have answered yours now be man enough to answer mine... Why did you not serve in the Vietnam war? >>By BushisaManiac Let the Debate Continue...... >>By Tchock Hi Tchock >>By BushisaManiac We don't have to speculate about the % of Americans that approve or disapprove of George Bush. Just google "opinion polls" and "George Bush", then click on http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm and there it is. Eight seconds of work and we have our answer ... about 1/3 approve. Now was that so hard? Actual knowledge and information just seconds away. Much easier than all the work of making things up. Of course there is the problem that the actual facts don't support what you are saying, so I guess you feel you have to change one or the other. Obviously you haven't changed what you are saying. Come on L2R, give it a try just to see what it's like. Go out and find a fact and use it to support something you say. Anything; a date, a per cent, a number, some written record, anything at all ... just one. It hardly hurts at all, and if you actually remember the information something else happens, something known as "learning". And then once you use facts to support your position something even stranger happens. We call that thing "respect". Your opponents and peers start to respect you, you start to respect yourself. It's a warm fuzzy feeling, and if you consistently use only facts, some other wonderful qualities appear: integrity, sincerity, curiousity. If you are lucky, eventually there is even the getting of wisdom. I know this all sounds to good to be true, but it really does happen. So don't be afraid, go ahead, give it a try. You have nothing to ignore but ignorance itself. Interesting site btw ... look at that! http://www.pollingreport.com/wh-hstry.htm As of June 1-4 2006 Americans think Dubya is the worst President since WWII, beating out even The Trickster, Wow! Well, at least Dubya made #1 in something. So you don't get personal? Well L2R, you'd better contact Marek right away because someone has been using your account to post all kinds of personal attacks in this thread. While you are talking to him you might ask about all the deleted posts. According to you, you have made all kinds of valid points here, but now I cannot find a single one. Now that I think of it, I have never seen any from you, none at all - are you sure you saved them properly? You know you have to click the little box at the bottom, right? You know L2R, obviously I don't know what your issue is, what's going on here. Maybe you are suffering from some unfortunate, untreated illness; bipolar, schizophrenia, something like that. If that is the case then I am truly sorry for you, and I would feel like a total shit for some of things I have said here. However, your obtuseness is more deliberate than I have ever seen from the victims of this sort of thing, and I suspect you are more insufferable than suffering. Or maybe we have it all wrong. Maybe you are part of a crack Al Queda political section that undermines the American cause by going online, masquerading as US citizens, and then spouting total drivel in the most jingoistic, arrogant tone imaginable. By presenting the American postion as indefensible nonsense you hope to turn every thinking person against the American cause? Could there be a mind so fiendish and twisted as to deliberately come up with the nonsense we have seen here? I doubt even Osama bin Ladin is capable of that. Regardless of the reason, you had an opportunity here and you have wasted it. You could have influenced our thinking, raised points we may have missed, challenged our thinking with thoughful arguments, or offered new perspectives and insights. Instead you have spent this time in fatuous postering It is becoming clear that attemping to engage in any sort of conversation with you is futile. Apparently you are willing to say anything, no matter how foolish, how obviously false, how transparently a lie, how vacuous or devoid of intellectual value, how lacking in integrity or substance, no matter how contemptible or hypocritical. I have never seen anyone so willing to utterly humiliate and debase themselves to try and "win" a discussion. Frankly it's embarassing to watch. The word 'pathetic' just isn't strong enough to describe the spectacle. The tragedy is that you, and apparently others like you, are making decisions that determine whether people live or die. If I have learned anything here it is to weep for America. >>By greenfyre Greenfyre: I haven't questioned your intelligence (in words), your sanity (while others have), nor whethwer or not you are a loser (I have no opinion on that.), but I am sure of one thing...you need a laxative!!! I repeat: Isn't it amazing how we deem others intelligent that agree with our opinions. Aren't you being childlike?? When my children were younger, they used to say that I didn't listen. Let me translate. What they meant was that I didn't agree with them. Surprise, surprise. Why do you ask me 'personally' about Vietnam? Did I email you, or dflork you, and state that I did not serve?? Surely you are not into snooping are you?? That sounds very American to me............. Your answer on Iran is (how do the Brits say it??) bloody wrong. Please try again. You are not implying that Iran would attack Israel are you?? I agree that Iran is not that stupid. >>By lv2read I gave you an answer I am not going to recover old ground, if you dont like my answer then thats just tough... answer my question please and then you can ask me another one >>By BushisaManiac Again, and in the King's English, did I tell you that I didn't serve in Vietnam? Are YOU ready to get personal?? My personal queries will be posted on the Brokeback Mountain site for all to read....Think about it. Are you a coward OR a snoop, or are you both?? For the world to see/read---I never mentioned to Greenfyre anything about military service. Where did he get his information?? Greenfyre...don't be a loser, come clean. >>By lv2read L2R Notice how not once do I have a problem with you not agreeing with me? I don't think I raise the issue once. I do say you do not cite facts, or the alleged facts you raise are proved to be utter fabrications within seconds. If this is not true please point to the places where you gave actual information that was accurate, or remotely accurate. I did not question your personal intelligence. I stated, obviously accurately, that what you have posted here is utter nonsense. You may be a very intelligent person for all I know; it's just that we have seen nothing here to suggest it. I stated my reasons for the service question clearly and plainly with the question. Try reading it and see if that helps you understand. BtW, the reason Bushisamaniac is not spelled g r e e n f y r e is because they are two different people. Funny that, eh? >>By greenfyre You definetely need new glasses sunshine, I asked the question, me.... 'BushisaManiac' ..not greenfyre....as I have been doing for the last half dozen or so posts... and you can write what you like on the BBM board, i'm not going back on that board, your 'willing' audience is here.. and why wont you answer the fucking question...what are you ashamed of, if you served in nam then say so if not say why not thats all i'm asking... then you can ask ANY question you like of me, be as personal as you want........do you actually remember me ? 'BushisaManiac'.... I would have thought you would have remembered me.....or are you emulating Ronald reagan in more ways than one? >>By BushisaManiac Perhaps our friend lv2read's debating skills might improve if he knew whom he was actually debating with.............. But then again.......... the outlook's not good. It is but a simple task we ask, lv2read. You present an argument with credible facts, and we argue that point. Who knows, we could ALL learn something. Please desist in going round in circles with accusations of who's being childish or who's not answering who's questions... because if you read over the whole course of this argument - it is quite clear who dissmisses' whose questions. (Unless you're replies, as greenfyre suggests, are being mysteriously deleted before anyone can read them). >>By Tchock I reckon he needs to have a lie down to recover... i mean okay there is a vast amount of words over the course of these posts but even I can recognise what the writing in Yellow, preceded by the word 'By' means.... >>By BushisaManiac PS does anyone actaully know who Jack is? cos i'm stumped on that one >>By BushisaManiac 20 people have messaged me with thanks and support for what i have on my profile, 2 people have messaged me saying what an idiot i am, one has messaged me full of jigoism and dogma...and one has messaged me disagreeing with my views but politely asking for conversation over them..... mmm guess i'm totally in the minority here with my beliefs...jeeez it's such a drag being an outcast >>By BushisaManiac Jack..... I think Jack is the persona of your misdemeanour.......... either that or Marek forgot to upload his last name?? >>By Tchock Hey Tchock Good on ya for trying, I know that I have had no success. God knows I would welcome a civil discussion with intelligent points being made, but this has been like reading Ann Coulter or Limbaugh. I continue to have faith that there is some kind of intellectual foundation to the radical right, but a little evidence now and then would sure help sustain me. Over at the BM thread L2R says "... how thin skinned the four are..." pretty much acknowledging that he is just jerking around. Our skins may be thin, but at least our skulls aren't thick ... BiaM: I believe "Jack" is a time delayed joke, ie this has been set up in advance so that you in turn ask "...", and then someone can use the double entendre of "You don't know Jack?!" >>By greenfyre lv2read's signed in three times now and has kept his silence.................hmmmm is this the quiet before the storm??? Is gathering... no... not facts and information??? Hmmm..... on the other hand he COULD be denouncing us as Al Queda ring leaders........................ >>By Tchock BiaM >> "mmm guess i'm totally in the minority here with my beliefs...jeeez it's such a drag being an outcast" Yes, you should join the 35% overwhelming majority who approve of Bush. Who is the polite nay sayer? I actually am quite interested in hearing the PoV of someone who has something to say. >>By greenfyre greenfyre actually he hasn't messaged me back after my reply to him if he does i will send you his name lordy as much as 35% would you credit such a massive lead... >>By BushisaManiac Well you know Bush's record.... When Berlusconi lost the election this year by a tenth of a percent... George congratulated him on a landslide victory.... >>By Tchock "George congratulated him on a landslide victory..." LOL - Maybe they can together with Felipe Calderón as The Three Shamigos >>By greenfyre oh of course the election up in the air................. and suddenly Felipe's got more votes Gee... wonder where they came from............... >>By Tchock Am I clear on this?? You will wait until Iran bombs Israel or some other country before take action or a position? What does this say about responsibility, leadership, etc. Following your train of thought, President Kennedy should not have blockaded Cuba until Castro decided to launch a missle towards Washington DC?? Tell me that you are not so sure of this. From the standpoint of intelligence alone, this is lacking. When are you going to become serious?? I bet the Iranian leader is really amused when (and if) he hears people like you makung such statements. Is there any one of the three that chooses to contest the response that we should ignore the threat in Iran?? Do you think President Bush'es unambigious stand on this issue--among others-- has made him the preeminent leader of the free world. Just maybe??? >>By lv2read "Gee... wonder where they came from..............." A loaner from Dubya? He'll need them back in Nov with they have their Senate and House elections. I'm half serious about the idea that L2R is really an Al Queda operative. I find the jingoistic nonsense from people like Coulter etc does far more to discredit the US administration than the thoughtful critiques of Cholmsky, Zinn, Frisk etc. Given that, wouldn't it be hugely effective to have a few dozen operatives posing as US citizens and roam the net posting twaddle such as we have seen here? Then lots of good folks who are unsure but feel there may be good reasons for the US policy read that stuff and then decide "I guess not". Just a thought ;-) >>By greenfyre The Cuban Missile Crisis, which you refer to. Well since the Bay of Pigs incident in which the cuban exiles (funded by the CIA..... and the Mafia by the way...) failed miserably - thankfully - the Soviet Union most certainly did not want America to attempt another unsolicited invasion. Both the U.S and the Soviet Union achieved something. U.S got the missiles outta Cuba on the condition that 1. They did not invade Cuba AGAIN 2. They withdraw THEIR missile base/military base in Turkey which I think you'll find was a lot more threatening that the Cuban base. You are forgetting lv2read that the Cold War came from both sides. As much as you were afraid of the 'Evil Empire' of the USSR, they were afraid of the Americans too. Right. On to Iran. Which one of us says we should let Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (that's the Iranian President by the lv2read) keep his Nuclear program? "Do you think President Bush'es unambigious stand on this issue--among others-- has made him the preeminent leader of the free world" Personally I would be surprised if Mr. Bush knew where Iran was (he probably thinks it is the first person singular of the verb to run). As for his stand of the issue? For a man to allegedly have an IQ of 80 (bordering on Special Needs I think) I do not believe that it is anyway his policy. "Just maybe???" No. No really. It is hard enough to trust George to eat a pretzel without choking himself half to death, let alone allow him anywhere near this delicate international issue. >>By Tchock Another thought Since we seem to be squatting here in the Thread of the Unknown Author, how about we dedicate it as a Jack Kerouac thread as an acknowledgement of many things American that are/were admirable, and that many of the US's greatest figures have been its virulent critics as well as celebrants. Then again, I kind of like "Thread of the Unknown Author" too. Thoughts? >>By greenfyre greenfyre...... (or perhaps BushisaManiac... far too many names here I cannot cope ;) ) YES!! i think we should have a dedicated team of imposters whose job it is to search out sites in which to post Republican jargon & the unthinking views and opinions of such Bushites.... (hmmm I like that word now.... just created it!) Yes!! We shall call the Operation...... Operation........ Texas Storm !!!!!!!!! >>By Tchock After all this obfuscation, the answer is that we do nothing about the threat from Iran?? Attn Gang of Four: What should be done about Iraq?? Please remember, this is a very real concern for millions and millions of people. Do we wait until it is too late to act? Think responsibility, think leadership, bit above all think. Notice for 'the kid' --- your personal comment re the American President are not appreciated. Your age is showing. Which of you has talked about personal invective...the child reflects on each of you. What should we do about Iran?? You may rewrite your answer. Clarification: Is anyone agreeing with me that President Kennedy was justified in blockading Cuba in1962?? A Yes or No will do. >>By lv2read Tchok LOL @ Texas Storm ... and a tip of the hat for your well reasoned and well informed positions. It's too bad you aren't on the "other side" as it would be a pleasure to be debating you instead, I suspect I would learn things. It is ironic that L2R would be condescending about your age (which we don't actually know anyway) given that i) it is irrelevant, and ii) you have shown yourself to be perfectly competent. He definitely owes you a groveling apology, but I doubt you will ever see it. And my apologies to all for my being such a Doze. When BiaM said we should try to move within flork I had no useful suggestions. Now in hindsight I realize we should have created at thread for Rampton and Stauber's book "Weapons of Mass Deception: The Uses of Propaganda in Bush's War on Iraq" as this entire discussion would be wholly appropriate within the context of that book. Sorry about that. >>By greenfyre I am not about to apologize for being 17. At this age it exactly how mature can you be? However, by a certain age a persons actions can become decisively mature or immature.......... A fact that we have being discussing quite a lot recently. Right. My personal comment about the 'Oh Wonderous Leader'. Well it was my comment to make - being dogmatic of mind, you may not appreciate it. As I am not going to delve TOO deep into personal issues - I shall merely state that I have not appreciated some of the insults which you have given me over the years I have been on flork. Do you honestly trust Bush as president? I am being serious. Please answer this question - and please, elaborate. I am fascinated as to why someone could possible trust Bush as a president.... even respect him. <After all this obfuscation, the answer is that we do nothing about the threat from Iran??> No. The answer is that we do not go in with the troops at the first sign of trouble. It would save a lot more lives if we negotiated once and a while, instead of jumping in guns first then wondering what we're going to do after the dust has settled. What should be done about Iraq? We cannot change the clock back - what is done is done. Whether you think it was an Illegal War or not - the fact of the matter is that the country is in a complete mess. And you are right - millions are affected, lv2read. What would you do in a situation which affected millions of lives?? There is of course no black & white solution. You have to think about the consequences of taking the troops out of Iraq. It would be utter turmoil for the people - yet they cannot remain without furthering the discontent and insurgency..... >>By Tchock
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