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Discussion: Jack I guess. It's lucky you're here, mediator. >>By Flagg Wait till you get the bill >>By Lynn Flagg if you read through our posts again, carefully, you will see that its you who has been a tad presumptive... "BiaM you're the most presumptuous person I've ever met. You're one of those people who can't even begin to accept someone else's point of view." where on earth did I say that I didnt accept your point of view, I understand exactly where you are coming from and I ACCEPT that thats your point of view...it just doesnt happpen to be my point of view... so are you pissed off because i wont accept your point of view as being right? its right for your way of thinking its not right for mine so who's right and who's wrong? neither of us and both of us.... "You're so confident that you're right and everyone else is wrong that you assume you know what I'm thinking, then you form an argument based on that assumption." as i just said your point of view there on what I assume and dont assume is a bit off mark I am not 'right.'. but I am 'right for my own values' and because they are different from your values you seem to take umbrage .. i base my arguments what you have said and on the difference in our views thats why its called an argument or a discussion, a debate or an exchange of views. "One thing I do know is that I've BEEN depressed like I said, and I don't understand why you can't bring yourself to just believe me. I don't understand why you have to undermine literally every word I say. Why can't you accept that things are different for me? I'm not asking you to change your views, just to concede that mine aren't worthless" Who on earth said that I didnt beleive you? wasnt me!! and I am not undermining every word you said I am arguing against them for reasons i have already mentioned. Of course i accept that things are different for you we are two totally different people with totally different experiences in life your views arent worthless to you but they are to me because they run contrary to what i beleive in, just as and you have to own up to this, my views are worthless to you.... I am just an unsympathetic neanderthal because my love and respect of my fellow human beings does not match yours...I know you didnt say that verbatim but is it not along the lines that you are thinking? "I don't know if I'm clinically depressed. ".....have you found out? have you done anything about it have you seen a doctor about it, cos seems tp me if you are deeply depressed for no particular reason perhaps ypu should, and thats not condescension on my part cos i did go and see a doctor about sticking a pistol in my mouth..... "I don't think BiaM is learning anything from all this" tell me what is there to learn? what can you teach me about this particular subject? >>By BushisaManiac Ok, what you've just pointed out is that there is absolutely no point us having this argument, which was true all along of course, and I should never have got into it, so I'm backing down now. >>By Flagg Well I think we ALL need to calm down a bit here. I think EVERYONE is capable of being presumptuous, getting on their high horse, condeming others' opinions and not listening to another point of view. It would be a little hypocratic on for everyone to go about accusing people of being a dogmatic arrogant sod when we each ourselves are just exactly the same - to a greater of lesser extent. BiaM - I agree with you, kind of. Abandoning the issue of junkies here to broaden it out a bit.... We've all met the types of people who you know are just a waste of space. Even the most charitable thinker would shake their heads at these people. They are the thugs and rapists, the flatuantly ignorant, the murderers, the sick perverts and the right wing. Describing that car accident you had a few years back - I'm not sure what I would do. It's challenging. But in the end - if it were really serious, I would do all I could to help them, grudgingly. I think it is absolutely horrible that they just started laughing - feckin' teenagers. I think it FAR worse however that in order to call for help if we are being attacked - raped even - we have cry "Fire!" to get someone's attention. Shout "Rape" & they just walk on by............... However, am I better than the types of people I mentioned above? I'd like to think so..... Is my life worth more than theirs? Again, I'd like to think so. I would not use my life for the destructions of others - intentionally at least. It really is tough - certainly not black & white. I really don't know how Doctors manage to treat patients they know to have killed or raped someone. Actually in a country - perhaps Russia? - it is illegal for a Doctor to knowingly pass an accident/scene of injury without helping the person in need - they can have their liscence revoked etc..... Hmmm. I'm not afraid of Death really, just the things I would never do. I believe certainly that once my eyes close the lights are out basically. So I don't so much feel empathy for the person, but for those they left behind. I guess I feel an empitness for the person - sadness, really - their life stolen (no matter who they are). But I'm of the opinion that once they're dead, they're dead. It's difficult. But here's what I think........................... & There is no right or wrong opinions. There are misinformed, ignorant, misguided, youthful, naive, realistic, conservative, liberal, pragmatic, original opinions................... but they all share one thing in common. They are all individual..............(if you look hard enough). >>By Tchock I might as well gob off on this one... First off, I hate it when people mention ecstacy as a "dangerous drug." You're in more danger of dying from choking on yer curry than from taking some X. I know, because I've done it loads of times and once ate too much and "OD'd," but the only problem caused was dehydration and heat, which my mates helped solve with water and air conditioning. As for deserving to die...We all deserve to die, every single one of us. This is proven by the fact that we all die eventually. I'd say it's the "Jesus saves" assholes who want to live forever who really "deserve" to die, since they refuse to accept reality. But again, my main complaint is people talking as experts about drugs they haven't done. I've done virtually all of them, and found that how dangerous a drug is depends on how stupid the user is. I've not shot anything up with a needle, but I've done everything else, and really it's just common sense that tells you "okay, do it tonight and not again for another year" when you're using something highly addictive. I've done pot, coke, crack, meth, heroin, ecstacy, loads of LSD, pills of all sorts, and even peyote...and ya know what? I'm addicted to alcohol, and it's come close to ruining my life many times. I don't preach against alcohol, I realize it all depends on the user. Whatever, great discussions still and I hope we can be nice to each other and still have some great big arguments! >>By Just Jon I find the notion that a serviceman criticises war-mongering (presumably because soldiers and civilians often get killed/maimed) and yet believes that a drug-user chasing away reality or "enhancing" their experience of it somehow deserves their untimely demise quite comedic. Don't soldiers get their chosen adrenaline rush with guns and tanks and bombs and danger? Isn't that just a tiny bit antisocial when done for real, and a complete waste of time and resources if you never intend to be able to force other societies to bend to your will either by implying that force will be used or actually using it? According to your line of reasoning BIAM don't servicemen "deserve" to die for their dangerous occupational choice (with the exception of when some form of conscription is used maybe?)? Unless of course I've misunderstood you BIAM? ;) >>By planet ear I think I'm on a different level from BiaM and Tchock. If you're talking about how much a person can change the world and make it better, then a junkie's life might be worth less than most people's. But I don't believe that life exists in order to have an effect on the world. I think it just exists, no reason. We don't all dedicate our lives to making the world a better place. Life is life, and it's all worth the same, and frankly I think it's despicable to say that one person's life is worth more than another's, regardless of what that person has done. >>By Flagg Well, Flagg, me & BiaM are NOT on the same level either..........I never said that I WAS better than anyone else - I am not. I was merely toying with the idea of what makes someone 'deserve' life...... I am against Capital Punishment - so I don't think all the murderers & rapists should be killed off........ that would be wrong - not least of all because they should live to see their punishment, rather than 'take the easy way out' or be murdered themselves. Ok - this applies to everyone. I have no answer myself, but I think it is an interesting question. You see a car crash at the side of the road. There are two cars. Both drivers are alone. However you know that one is a good person - quite ordinary etc, and so is the other save from the fact that he is a murderer. A fire starts in BOTH cars - and you only have time to rescue one of them. Which do you choose? I have no answers - it is impossible to choose unless you are there, your addrenaline rushing. All I'm trying to say is that we judge people on what they've done and this should be no basis to determine whether they should be allowed to live etc. Everyone does this - we can't help it. Of course, Flagg, no one's life is more valued than another. But I suppose it would be a bit like choosing to save a loved one rather than a stranger........... I know who I would always choose. Does that make me a bad person? No - because given the same situation, the stranger's family would do exactly the same. >>By Tchock If it was a loved one or a stranger, yes I'd definitely save the person I knew. I know we're all biased in this and that we can't help that. But that's going very far from the point I made. My point, which had nothing to do with saving people's lives was that it's wrong of BiaM to value the life of a soldier over the life of someone who takes drugs. BiaM, I realise you never said this outright but it was the impression you gave (to me) because of the total lack of respect you showed to people who die from drug overdoses. The same goes for people who commit suicide. I know everyone has different value/ideas/moral standards, and no I'm not pissed off because you don't agree with mine, I'm pissed off because you look down on anyone who doesn't agree with yours. That's the impression you've given. I'm sure you're going to tell me I've got it all wrong (again) but it won't change the way you came across when you presented your argument. >>By Flagg 'I am just an unsympathetic neanderthal because my love and respect of my fellow human beings does not match yours...I know you didnt say that verbatim but is it not along the lines that you are thinking?' Close. I'm thinking you're an unsympathetic neanderthal because your love and respect for your fellow human beings only extends as far as people who live by the same moral code you do. Getting the idea? >>By Flagg 'have you found out? have you done anything about it have you seen a doctor about it, cos seems tp me if you are deeply depressed for no particular reason perhaps ypu should' That's you being presumptuous again, although it's beyond me to articulate how. My dad has clinical depression, so did his mum, and her dad. Yes I've seen a doctor, I've seen a counsellor and I still don't know if I'm clinically depressed. >>By Flagg A drug users overdoses - he may kill himself..........cause a lot of grief for his family............ A soldier fires his gun indiscriminantly, fires a rocket a few degrees out he kills innocent civilians........................ >>By Tchock Oh JJ - ......."OD'd," but the only problem caused was dehydration and heat Because you were 'lucky' (this time) it isn't a dangerous drug? It may be that- "The majority of fatalities and cases requiring emergency care involve hyperthermic syndromes" but isn't any 'fatality' one too many?? "I've done virtually all of them, and found that how dangerous a drug is depends on how stupid the user is" What about: Inexperienced? Young? Exploring? Being eager to 'fit in'? That may all be a very 'stupid' reasons to take drugs - but unfortunately there are many kids who take/explore drugs for this reason(s) I know you well enough to see your post in the right light - but I think it's good get into it because you were probably abducted by aliens and returned to earth with iron organs living through all the stuff you have taken - allthough I'm never sure about your level of exaggeration ;-) BUT unfortunately not everyone is as lucky as you. Drugs make a lot of casualties, not just the obvious ones but ther are also a lot of wrecked families, children being born with a drug addiction caused by mothers use of drugs, suicides caused by severe depressions caused by longterm drug use etc etc etc. I'm not even gonna start about alcohol and cigarettes. Anyway - to show a few kids who became 'famous posthumously': Leah Betts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leah_Betts Rachel Whitear http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Whitear Whatever exactly caused their deaths - I'll bet if they hadn't used drugs there's a good chance they had not choked on their curries yet. >>By Lynn "There is no right or wrong opinions. There are misinformed, ignorant, misguided, youthful, naive, realistic, conservative, liberal, pragmatic, original opinions................... but they all share one thing in common. They are all individual..............(if you look hard enough)." spot on Tchocky "First off, I hate it when people mention ecstacy as a "dangerous drug." You're in more danger of dying from choking on yer curry than from taking some X. I know, because I've done it loads of times and once ate too much and "OD'd," but the only problem caused was dehydration and heat, which my mates helped solve with water and air conditioning." JJ people do die of ecxtasy, granted not often, but in the UK it tends to make frontpage news usually cos its a first time usage death, and even one young girl who thought she was being sensible by making sure she was hydrated , died of consuming too much water.... would have been more sensible not doing the stuff in the first place then she would still be sucking air... but hey it was her choice... "But again, my main complaint is people talking as experts about drugs they haven't done." have I said I was an expert.... no methinks not, beside you dont need to have the brains of an archbishop to know that when people take some drugs it can lead to premature death "believes that a drug-user chasing away reality or "enhancing" their experience of it somehow deserves their untimely demise quite comedic." PE if you read back what i have read i said that they deserve death no more than they deserve life, You all seem to assume that I want druggies to die, that i hope druggies will die...what I am saying is that I don't give a shit whether they live or die, and i fail to be moved by the death of anyone that takes such a risk, just as i fail to be moved by the death of the guy that tried russian roulette with an automatic pistol... in fact i will cut and paste exactly what i wrote before....... "And anyone stupid enough to do those drugs knowing full well of the risks (and no-one can say that they dont know that certain drugs are dangerous, cos i dont buy that at all) deserves anything they get, be it a good hit or a slow death vomiting and bleeding and cardiac arresting all over the place" If you think i am a heartless bugger then so be it i dont particularly care about that, and i still fail to see why i should mourn the death of someone that needs to introduce drugs into their body to get a kick out of life "Don't soldiers get their chosen adrenaline rush with guns and tanks and bombs and danger?" hey PE you hit the nail right on the head yep thats what we all joined up for every one with such insight you have obviously served in the forces yourself...get real mate Whether soldiers deserve to die is obviously a matter of personal opinion, do police constables deserve to get stabbed in the streets... in my personal opinion no they don't , however it is a known risk for those going about their legitimate careers...once again does a druggie deserve to die..I dont care whether they die or not "But I don't believe that life exists in order to have an effect on the world. I think it just exists, no reason. We don't all dedicate our lives to making the world a better place. Life is life, and it's all worth the same, and frankly I think it's despicable to say that one person's life is worth more than another's, regardless of what that person has done." Flagg i agree with the first part of that, life is life full stop, no great scheme in things as for the second bit then i am despicable ..big deal i can live with that. and i dont look down on you, you are entitled to your opinion why arent i entitled to mine? it may come across as looking down because i can be sarcastic..or because I am older than you and have hence experienced more...well yes i do get sarcastic thats just me... and lets face it i have experienced a bit more than you so that does entitle me to presume that maybe i know a bit more about life than you.. and presume i will. as for love and respect i dont feel any love for my fellow human being and respect of course we respect those whom we find similar to ourselves...do you respect the morons in the BNP? do you respect their views., do you respect thier right to have those views?... do you respect their rights to freedom of speech? whilst i think they are total idiots with no real grip on life inn Britain i respect their rights to think and say what they want... doesnt mean i have to agree or even listen..... well all i have said about the potential demise of junkies are my rights of thought and speech... "A soldier fires his gun indiscriminantly, fires a rocket a few degrees out he kills innocent civilians........................" not every time tchock and yes i do feel sorry for civilians caught in the crossfire 'collateral damage' is the most empty term in warfare jargon >>By BushisaManiac >as for the second bit then i am despicable ..big deal i can live with that. I'm sure you can, but I'm not saying all this to make you feel bad about yourself. I guess what I'm trying to do is make you understand what I'm saying, because so far you've misunderstood most of what I've said. >and i dont look down on you, you are entitled to your opinion why arent i entitled to mine? I wasn't talking about myself, I was talking about junkies who OD and people who commit suicide, they're the people you look down on. You say their deaths don't mean anything to you. I don't understand why you fail to recognise when a tragedy like that happens. And no, for the second time, I'm not saying you should mourn every junkie or suicide case, just that you should recognise their deaths as a bad thing, not be indifferent. And I never said you weren't entitled to your own opinion. Every time someone challenges your opinion you talk about your right to it. But if we don't challenge eachother's opinions then it's not a debate is it? My original two points were: About junkies. You're saying that their deaths mean nothing to you, make you feel nothing, and that they shouldn't make you feel anything, purely because they were willing to take a risk you personally wouldn't take. I'm not saying this is WRONG, I'm saying it shows a total lack of empathy. About suicides. Just because you've put a gun in your mouth and NOT pulled the trigger doesn't mean anyone who has pulled the trigger is weak and deserves no respect. You judge massive - and massively diverse - groups of people based on ONE action, one tiny facet of their personality. >>By Flagg LOL Biam Nope I haven't served in the forces, I'm not that gullible thanks! I did work/socialise/train with servicemen for a couple of years when I was doing Operations Research for the MoD tho' so sorry BIAM you're not gonna convince me what servicemen are like contrary to the opinion I already hold. >>By planet ear Flagg mate the fundamental difference between you and me in this debate is that I still dont understand why i should consider anything about any Junkies death, what is so wrong about being indifferent about people i neither know or care about, they mean nothing to me, if that means that i am a bad human being then i dont really care, thats how I am thats what works for me, and it hasnt lost me any friends or lovers..... as for suicides I dont really give them a thought either, do I feel that I am stronger than them well to tell you the truth i never really thought about it until this debate, and then i find that yes i do feel that I am stronger than them, but once again i dont really think about them...read of a suicide in the paper (dont really read papers much cos they are all total rubbish in the UK) and i have no thoughts either way except in the odd case like the guy that threw himself and his kids off the balcony recently, my thoughts go out to the kids and their mum cos of his selfishness ok he survived and he has to live with that (he'll top himself eventually) but i dont care about him...its just a news story to me... as Lynn said and this is no excuse, i guess it's just true in my case, when you see some truly awful gut wrenching things when your hands stop shaking you tend to switch off and immune yourself to it.... and i'm afraid suicides and junkies, young kids killing their girlfriends on saturday night drunken races in their souped up corsa's ... dont rate highly in the food chain as far as I am concerned.... i feel sorrow for the people left behind in the carnage but it doesnt keep me awake at nights... thats just how it is for me and at 41 theres not a lot thats going to change that now, if you can sleep peacefully at night with your thoughts and your morals then good, im glad for you, 'cos i certainly do >>By BushisaManiac Ha ha PE you say servicemen are gullible (and doing a wee bit of reserach makes you an expert into their lives and lifestyles obviously) and yet we should mourn the demise of a few space cadets on speed or heroin or acid or whatever ...mmm a do-gooding tree hugger no doubt.... yes i have met a few like that head in the clouds and no real grip on life have a line of coke mate make you feel at one with the world >>By BushisaManiac Yep I do say servicemen are gullible on the whole, I worked with them, shared offices with them, went to the pub with them a couple of times a week, joined them on manouvres, went on courses with them. Aside from that it seems pretty obvious that to put yourself in a situation where to help a politicians career you get to patrol Belfast or Baghdad for a pittance of a salary and put your family through emotional hell to boot, is well. daft. But hey, if you feel different so be it. It doesn't stop with the end of your service either does it? The forces will tell you you'll learn transferable skills during service but I don't see much evidence that employers, other than the defence industry wanting those very few really "in the know", courting ex-servicemen. Sorry. From the BBC website: "More veterans of the Falklands War have killed themselves in the years since the 1982 conflict ended than died during hostilities, according to a veterans support group. The South Atlantic Medal Association say they are "almost certain" the suicide toll is greater than 255 - the number of men killed in the war." Why is that do you think BIAM? Is that suicide rate typical of a well-balanced group of guys coping well with reality in your opinion? I don't think accusing me of being a coke-snorting, tree-hugging do-gooder is does any more than illustrate your own distorted perception. >>By planet ear Ok BiaM let's call it quits. Yes, I understand your indifference to these people's deaths, I don't think anyone thinks about this kind of thing much. As has been said, we just put it out of our heads. I still disagree with you: I don't think a drug addict you don't know deserves any less respect that a soldier you don't know, and (unlike most people, not just you) I am not so quick to condemn suicide as selfish and wrong. One thing on which I do agree with you is the quality of newspapers in this country. I'll stop there before I start a bitchathon. >>By Flagg Speaking of whether or not we should care when certain people die... I admit it, I am sick of 9/11 tributes and remembrances. All of these (mainly conservative) blogs have these idiotic and tacky animated gifs with "always remember" or "never forget" or "mission accomplished" or whatever ridiculous phrase Sean Hannity spouted off most recently, along with the obligatory "counter" showing the death toll. The fact of the matter is, 2,900 and whatever people didn't die on 9/11. Over 50,000 people died on 9/11, and the only difference is that I'm not publicly pressured to give a fuck about the other 47,000 people I didn't know, many of whom died of starvation and preventable diseases. The most honest response I heard on 9/11, mere hours after it happened, was from a co-worker who said, "so a bunch of rich stockbrokers died. I don't give a fuck." I realize he was wrong in that cops, firefighters, and other regular folk died, but he was at least honest enough to admit that it didn't affect him personally. Five years later, it doesn't affect me either. I just want to know what the cut off is for this memorial shit--we no longer do this for the Oklahoma City bombing, so exactly how high does the death count need to be for me to have to be obligated to care? >>By Just Jon Ok Flagg, lets agree to disagree. JJ, I know exactly what you mean, the media across here has taken to calling the london bombings 7/7, and the victims have attained a kind of martyrdom status, they have totally forgotten the Harrods bombing, the pub bombings in Guildford and Birmingham, the day an Army band was blown up in Hyde park and mounted soldiers and their horses blasted all over the place also in London. The truth is that for some people myself included and maybe you JJ from your comments, it is something that happens in the news its ghastly and tragic for the people concerned but if it doesn't affect me personally why should I really care ...as my debating/arguing with Flagg have shown, you either care on a personal level or you dont... PE from your description of your involvement with the Army, you as a MOD sponsored bod doing research, would have undoubtedly had officer status, so i would presume, and without you saying exactly what you did I can only go by my presumptions, that you associated with officers went on the piss with officers and observed what the men did or did not do alongside said officers, the majority of them f*ckers have their heads in the clouds and have no grip on what the men below them feel or think. Bet you never had a room inspection or made a bed pack, stagged on on the gate, or did pan-bash in the cookhouse. bet you never went on adventure training in Belize or watched a firepower demo, or did a thousand of other things soldiers actually do... you were an outside observer and no amount of observing gives a true insight into what a soldier's life is really like... do you know what it is like to be a fireman? oh you may assume you do, you know WHAT they do, but unless you have actually done it then you can just surmise what you THINK it's like, I have a good idea what its like to be a fireman, but in reality I dont KNOW what its like, cos i havent done it. I and not a single one of my colleagues whilst I was in the Army joined up thinking of what my service would do for a politicians career, at 17 you dont think about politicians careers, you think about your own future career. You join for three main reasons, 1) You WANT to join the army, 2) join up to avoid a prison sentence and 3) there are no other jobs in your area. Its only when you mature that you realise two things 1) the Army sucks bigstyle and you want out or 2) civilians are so introspective and selfish that boy arent you glad you aint a civvy wan*ker. As for life after the military, yes they spin all sorts of tales about how they would help you to integrate into civilian life and it is just that spin, but what other government departments don't lie like a cheap naafi watch?. Transferable skills, well everyone in my family had a military trade that has its equivalent in civvy street, but after 20 odd years in the game who wants to do the same thing, consequently only my dad carried on doing his trade...but yes we could have easily carried on doing what we were doing before. If you join the infantry then what trade is that, until they need machine gun positions down the aisles in tesco's then obviously being an infanteer wont have much to offer a future employer apart from team spirit, self discipline and a sense of loyalty, obviously not every ex-squaddie has these qualities, but forgive me if i step out of line here, what f*cking university teaches these things to the perpetual scholastics amonst us? What I do know is that squaddies will do anything for their mates, in the 7 years that I have been out of the military I have only seen one group of working lads with that kind of camaraderie. Thats probably why I rate soldiers more worthy of my care and interest than civilians. as for the suicide rates of falklands Vet's i have absolutely no idea why, PTSD maybe, maybe marital problems or money problems,or maybe it is no different to the suicide rates for males in the UK in general and some Bod is being paid for collating interesting (?) staistics, i dont know do you? as for my distorted perception, its only distorted to you 'cos it doesnt match your (in my view equally distorted) perception >>By BushisaManiac Oh I don't care on a personal level about everyone who dies, I never meant to give that impression. What I disagreed with was your idea that one person's life can be worth more than another's. I agree with JJ, that comment from your colleague was probably far more honest than alot of what people have said about 9/11 since. I would say that it's just as much a tragedy when one person ODs or commits suicide or gets hit by a car as when 3000 people get blown up by terrorists. I wouldn't spend time mourning for any of them unless I knew them. >>By Flagg Does that mean we should stop fighting famine, HIV etc in Africa - because we don't know anybody there personally? >>By Lynn Well personally speaking i'm not fighting aids or famine anywhere >>By BushisaManiac Of course not Lynn, because we know that those people's deaths are as tragic as the deaths of people we *do* know and *do* mourn for. >>By Flagg I haven't got time to comment on all your post right now Biam, although I find your reasoning a a little odd. Regarding suicide rates among Falklands vets using figures from Sama82 and what I could find for UK population as a whole from Dept of Health is would appear to be just over 12 times higher (assuming 9 per 100,000 over a 3 year interval for UK Population as a whole which is a higher figure than current one ). The more relevant comparison figure given such a high rate for combatants I'd argue would be one where the control group was "UK males excluding servicemen" since it could be the case that such a high rate of suicide amongst combatants actually distorts the UK male figure to some extent. >>By planet ear Lynn brings up what is to me the real point--how do we stop unnecessary suffering and death? I think it's no accident that the powers-that-be would have us memorialise 'til we're blue in the face rather than actually change things and prevent this shit in the first place. As for the soldier thing, no offense BIAM but a soldier's life is pretty well documented, and we hear it from our mates who serve. There is no "inner secret" to a soldier's life that one can grasp only by joining up, though I see why a vet would want us to believe that. I tended bar for many years, and most of us in the biz hung out at certain places and met certain girls and thought we were part of a secret society. We weren't. A job's a job, mate. And I hate to have to type this, but just in case BIAM comes back with the "only those who have seen combat..." thing...I've been there done that, only without uniforms. Fighting and killing makes you worse, not better, and there is no honour in that whatsoever. >>By Just Jon "A job's a job, mate." It's not that simple mate...you have been on boat, a ferry say, so you know what its like to be in the Navy right? wrong no you dont and neither do I, you have sat in a plane before so you know what its like to be a pilot... do you now?... and as i said you know what its like to be a fireman....unless you have done these things no you dont, I'm not saying its a secret society i'm not saying its an exclusive club oh you are intelligent you read books and you see films, but that only gives you an insight of what its like to do a particular job, but every single one of us has no real knowledege of someone elses job unless we have done it, i know what deep sea fisherman do...this year i saw a programme called the 'worlds deadliest catch' on the ol' discovery channel, i had no idea it was like that...now i have seen the documentaries of course i know exactly what its like being a crab fisherman in the atlantic... do i bollox, i can imagine but i dont know...just as i dont know what its like to wait on tables day in and day out, year after year, and i have waited on tables before... we can imagine what its like but we dont know and you dont KNOW what its like being a soldier no matter how many books you read , films you saw or vets you talk to... as for combat i have never been in all out combat before...just the odd round or two coming over so i DON'T know what real combat is like, and regardless of how many gunfights or street killings or gang warfare or bounty hunting killing or whatever your experience is you dont know what combat is like either. >>By BushisaManiac
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