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| Discussion: Jack JJ (stifles yawn), I don't claim to "be a physicist" JJ, my profile states entirely accurately and truthfully that I have a degree in Physics. It's BSc(hons) 2:1 from the University of Birmingham where I studied from age 18-21. During that time I was sponsored by the Ministry of Defence under the Science Studentship scheme, being one of 20 or so successful applicants from around 2000 applications received nationally and due to the terms of that scheme I was unable to consider the written invitation I received to apply to do a Phd in the Solar Physics group at Birmingham. I have 3 "A" grades at "A" level (in Maths, Physics and Chemistry) and a "B" grade in Further Maths (studied at Palmers Sixth Form College in Thurrock which I attended from age 16-18) where from approx 600 students I shared the Science Prize with I think 5 others for higest grades in Science. I did that stuff while playing guitar for 3 hours a day. You want me scan my degree certificate and email it to you JJ? >>By planet ear Uh, dude...I suggest you walk around Newport Beach at 4 a.m. and then try the same in Liverpool. I might be willing to concede that Huntington has become a shit hole, but Newport? You've not been there, so shut up. >>By Just Jon (Monday, 16 Oct 2006 20:42) Don't profess to ever have been there , all i'm doing is quoting your police department statistics, which suggest otherwise dude :) >>By wreckin krew Unicef rankings 2002, based on percentage of 14 and 15 year olds scoring below a minimum level in literacy, maths and science. USA ranked 18th It would seem to be demonstrated from some postings here that this rather poor showing may not have been a temporary aberration. ;) >>By planet ear Its getting interesting in here again..:-) L2R "BIAM would stereotype me as a _____ money lender I suppose." We all know you worship at the alter of the dollar, but thats about as far as it goes, do you lend money... i dont know , do you? however do I see you as a shylock character (shakespeare, no place for him in your ideals of education though is there) or as a money lender in the temple, No I dont, and I never read the Bible didnt really get the jist of all that religion rubbish... So no I dont see you as a_______money lender!! however you have surprised me in that finally you have said something that I can agree with vis a vis your comments on the responsibilities of parents in guiding their children, spot on really!! But back to the rhetoric...these liverpudlian slums, are they the ones without a tennis court and swimming pool in the grounds? JJ call me an old cynic if you want but something tells me..... you dont really get on with PE do you?? and wrekin crew you must concede to JJ's point you are probably far more likely to get a good kicking in Liverpool thyan you are in Newport Beach CA PE we all applaud you for your brilliant scholastic skills so what does it all mean??.... do you think JJ has any idea what an 'A' level is (no JJ its not something from a Californian genre of video production)...so why boast about it, in one post you are telling L2R that a succint 'No' would suffice and yet you feel the need to show us all what a clever boy you are!! >>By BushisaManiac What are A and B level examinations? Are they austerity exams such as the GRE (graduate record exam), MCAT (medical college admissions test) and the LSAT (law school admissions test) here in the states?? (There may be others.) Educational differences in the USA? Profound. Generally the Northeast (New England states) has the most rigorous system. The 'deep' south is at the bottom of the educational ladder. I don't know why and any comment I'd make would be pure speculation. Where does California rank? Well, non-English speakers reside here(by the millions)---would you like to guess?? There are businesses here in Orange County that have the following sign posted in a front window, "English spoken here." >>By lv2read In the UK you used to go to primary school from the age of 5 to 10, then to secondary school from 10 to 15, in the last year the fith year or fifth form there were generally two types of examination level, the CSE secondary Certificate of Education and the GCE 'O' Level General certificate of Education, Ordinary level. Generally speaking if you were a bit of a thicky you did CSE's and if you were a bit brighter than thick then 'O' Levels. If you got a grade 1 on a CSE exam that was the equivalent of a grade C pass at 'O' level. If you decided that you were going, or indeed were bright enough, to go onto further education, at 16 you could stay on at school in the 6th form or go to a 6th form college and try your GCE 'A' Levels (advanced level) I can't remember what the requirements for University were, I'm sure PE can advise on that but you needed good grades in 'A' level and more 'O' levels than you could poke a stick at!! I myself being of just a gnat's knacker above average edumacashion abilities got 1 CSE grade 1 and 7 'O' levels, and went on to do two 'A' levels... thinking well the diference between GCE 'O' and GCE 'A' must be the same as CSE and GCE 'O' .... boy was I wrong 'A' levels were a damn sight harder... and a damn sight more boring for me!! So basically although I sarcastically said to PE above that we applaud his brilliant scholastic abilities...he is actually a very bright chap indeed. Now and for a number of years there has been a dumbing down of education with GCSE's replacing the CSE/GCE 'O' Level, I rememeber my sister doing GCSE's and they were a joke, however in saying that the homework kids get nowadays seems to be far harder than the homework I had to do, so perhaps the coursework you do goes towards the current exam grade, you will have to ask others that as I am a bit too crusty and long in the tooth to say with certanty without going through google >>By BushisaManiac Scottish System's better though ;) 4-12 Primary School (painting & colouring in basically) 12-16 (compulsory education) High School 14-16 We do Standard Grades - 8 subjects chosen from the school curriculum to study at Foundation, General or Credit with Credit being the most challenging. 16-17/18 - Highers. These are the qualifications that get us into university. There are alternatives to doing Highers - Intermediate 1 & Int.2 - basically on apar with the Standard Grade of Credit & General. If you want to be a Doctor you have to do Five Highers - & in most cases you have to get 5 As at that level. To get 5 A's is quite an achievment actually - although it depends on the exam at times. 17/18 - Advanced Higher - basically in most cases it's the same level as First Year University. You can only do an Advanced Higher in a subject if you've done a Higher in it & have achieved a good enough grade. A.H is somewhat ignored in English Universities - you need A's in two Advanced Highers to get into a course in England that might only take say a B or a C in A level. Apparently our Stupid Education Secretary wants to delay teaching times tables because the kids are under so much pressure. Dumbing down.....................uhhh 9 x 6 is............. uhhhhhhh I could never understand why people have this thing about maths - it's like they automatically think it's hard & difficult & evil. It's completely bizarre. It's almost fashionable. What's happened on the Jack Board since I was last here ?? <a strategy such as Tchock and BIAM and attempt tp confound others with snippets of info located on the web> lv2read...................... well uhhhh how else do you prove something??? & more importantly what's NOT to understand about a statistic??? How can one be confounded by a basic crime statistic for a certain area in the world or specific country................... ???? But yes, I do agree that parents are wholly responsible for their kids. Kids only do what they're parents allow them to do.............. there are a number of children here - 7 at most, wondering the streets at half eleven at night - not a parent in sight !!! A gang of five year olds attempted to beat up my brother's flatmate the other day with a stone. & don't even get me started on neds/chavs... (uhmmmm.... translation for the Americans here - they're thick idiots who'd lose to an ameoba in an IQ test........ no really - seriously. They hang about the streets at all hours, shouting abuse at passers by - beating up people, having sword fights in glasgow, find beating up peoplehilarious - even film MURDER on their mobile phones & laugh at it.............. yes... scum of the earth). Anyone else getting frustrated with JJ & his insessent (sp) ahhhh I can't even describe it. A certain je ne sais quoi...... ;) lv2read. What do you describe as a slum ??? Perhaps you should go out to somewhere in Africa & see for yourself.............. I agree - most of the building archetecture in this country is abismal. It's disgusting, hideous, atrocious - horrible to look at. But a slum ??? Not quite.............. It should all be knocked down though & replaced with something more easy-on-the-eye............... >>By Tchock * 7 years old at most !! >>By Tchock I used to hate maths, just couldnt do it at all, take the times tables, no one ever showed me the patterns involved, I was expected to learn them by rote, and yet look how many patterns can be found in the 9 x table alone. No teacher ever brought any fun into maths when i was at school, I learned more from Zoe Balls dad on the TV. Its only later on in life that you appreciate how much you need maths.... However in saying that since leaving school in 1982 I have not once come across the requirement for using logarithms, have never had to use fractions, except when using imperial spanners, and then you dont use maths you just learn to know that the next size up from 7/16ths is 1/2 inch!! I have never used probabilities and only rarely needed algebraic skills. Percentages I use all the time, areas, volumes and velocity over time equations I have used quite a lot. So why do they teach the sort of stuff you will never need? I mean logarithms ask your self what on earth are they used for? What should be taught is the skills of finding out where the information you do need can be found!! and how to use the technological devices that we have to come up with the answers we need, I mean how many kids have a mobile phone? yet how many kids can use the conversion or calculator functions on their phones? I saw on the news not so long back how teachers were whining about kids using the internet to do their homework...how petty is that, thats what the technology is there for.!! >>By BushisaManiac As for slums, I think generally you can say that in the first world countries a slum dwelling can be characterised by the following :- lack of electricity Lack of running water. lack of a means by which to cook i.e electricity or gas lack of decent sanitation the size of a house does not make it a slum, the condition may I suppose, if the local councils did nothing about rising damp, dry rot etc then the health implications could lead to slum- like qualities. The same can of course be said for private dwellings and then the onus is on the owner I dont think in this day and age we have slums in the UK, some pretty shitty housing yes, but slums? >>By BushisaManiac I'll try to define a 'slum' as I see it. Elevated crime rate. Disporportionate number of residents per apartment/flat. ...which leads to overcrowded schools. High drop-out rates in schools. High unemployment. Hunger. Drug use and drug dealing out in the open. Housing in need of major repair. There are many other characteristics, and it is true that the definition varies from culture to culture. So Tchock's reply is meaningless to me---there is always someplace worse off. And according to the crime statistics cited previously, I have learned just how dangerous Newport Beach really was/is. Sheer foolishness. And, if you are correct, and there are no slums in the UK, I sincerely congratulate you. And I'll readily admit that my 180-240 days (approx) that I've spent in your country does not qualify me as an expert. And I'll further concede that being treated medically and undergoing surgery at the Royal Liverpool Hospital does not entitle me to conclude that your system of socialized medicine is lacking. While the care I received at the RLH was excellent, the facilities were light years out of date when compared to Hoag Hospital in Newport Beach. But, I'm not comparing anything to anything. >>By lv2read Slums in the UK??? Not for a while, lv2read. i think there might be a high unemployment in these "slums" because many of the residence are lazy gits who get funded by the government to look for a job they're deliberately not finding. I'e Glasgow. As Biam said - we have shitty housing, but not slums. You know, funnily enough I don't think we have any child-chimney sweeps anymore............. There is a difference to a slum & poor housing quality & the people who live in them. Yes there is a lot of crime in these poor areas - but that's down to the parents again..... kids without morals.... let loose on the streets. The shitty housing in Britain doesn't need repaired - it needs demolished & rebuilt. Of course that can't happen immediately (unfortuately). A slum is generally a block of houses shared by many families - often four to a room, very little hygiene, no sanitation, no electricity (like what BIAM said up there actually). If there are any slums in Britain then that is appalling - but what is sickening is that it's not just one or two in Africa no - I rather think these slums go on for miles.................... (Funny that my replies always seem to be meaningless.....................) If our socialized medical care is lacking it's because the money is going elsewhere. ..........*Iraq*.... ...*MPs pockets*.............*feckin'lazyassed Glaswegians &thelikeswithnoconceptofhardwork* ......... ........pointless governmental schemes & holidays (sorry, government trips abroad to discuss important matters................) & of course you can't have a good healthcare system if you don't have proper good old common sense. >>By Tchock <So why do they teach the sort of stuff you will never need? I mean logarithms ask your self what on earth are they used for? > Sorry - you've got a maths geek on your hands here..... Well logarithms............ !!!! ok ok - the rate of change of a logarithm (the derivative) lnx = natural log of x dy/dx of lnx = 1/x sorry, that didn't make much sense..... but well Ok if you've got a graph of something against something & you want to find the rate of change at a specific point then you can just use differentiation & find it out, similarly with integration you can find the area under the graph - useful for finding the displacement in a velocity/time graph................ I don't know what kind of work you are in right now - so maybe you don't use it much right now - but when you were a soldier, think of the maths that goes into that. Artillery & trajectories - all maths................... Well there is one branch of maths that is an integral part of life: negative numbers. "How can you take something away from nothing?" "Just look at my bank-balance!!" A joke my maths teacher said quite a lot.................... I love maths. I can see its applications everywhere. Ok so most people aren't going to ever care about logarithms or sine waves after they leave school, but they are used in everything. Ever wondered how an MP3 player can store songs ??? Sine waves !!! A mathematician had discovered that any wave can be related to a combination of sine waves about twenty or thirty years, and it was only until recently that that was used in the rise of the IPOD & MP3 players...........& then he got the nobel prize. Ok - sound waves, logarithmic. If you pluck a guitar string at lenght 1m, then 90cm, 80cm & so on, plot it on a graph it comes out as a logarithmic function. What's the inverse of a (natural) log function ??? e !!! so the inverse of lnx is e^x (e to the power x) & e is everywhere- really - simple harmonic motion - which is everywhere............ it's magic !!! Sorry, getting carried away here................................. But basically - maths is widely used, although not everyone will use every branch of maths available...........for instance I hope I never ever ever ever study statistics (as in the various ways & dullness of how to get to the conclusion of 75% of the population of the planet are idiots). Polynomials !!! Oh no- don't get me started now.............. !!! ;) >>By Tchock more on e^x (unlimited) population growth from bacteria to people that can define it really radioactive decay continuously compounded interest !!! & if we use the maclaurin's series we can find a pretty exact value for sinx e^x cosx well pretty much anything you want !!!!!!!! & then there's imaginery numbers !!!!! >>By Tchock Statistics was the only part of maths I could handle. It is pretty interesting when it comes into psychology. Never believe any advert that quotes statistics. Man, I've missed alot of discussion. I'm afraid I haven't read it all, but it looks like everyone is arguing about which country is better again. They both have slums, they both have crime, they both have vast numbers of unhappy people. >>By Flagg >find beating up peoplehilarious - even film MURDER on their mobile phones & laugh at it.............. yes... scum of the earth). We had a bunch of teenagers rape an 11-year-old girl and film it on their phones in London. This kind of thing is sickening. I mean literally, makes me feel queasy to think about. The worst thing is - where did it come from?? Why are people doing it now? Have there always been people this sick and camera phones have made it worse/more public? Or is it new? I mean, what can be SO WRONG with a society that this kind of thing happens??? >>By Flagg Mmmm....Tchocky!! you know your stuff (I presume, you could be writing gibberish, but nothing you have written on any of your posts have been gibberish so far, so I will trust you on this one!!) but the point I was making was what use are sine waves (I'd forgotten about them!!), logarithms, cosines, tangents etc to everyday people in everyday life!! Okay they are all vital to the development of whatever they are used to develop such as the example you gave MP3 players, but in everyday life!! I am currently in Construction Health and Safety, so we use statistics a lot, and use those statistics to 'predict' trends, but I use just two equations to do that!! and they involve division, multiplication and percentages, at my level we dont have to be so precise that complex probability factor equations are required The only time I see logarithms at work is with regards to noise levels, with the decibel scale being logarithmic, however I use a noise meter and a known scale of noise levels, jackhammers compared to Dump trucks compared to Piling rigs etc etc, not a pamphlet of logarithmic tables. If I ever do a Noise Pollution assessors course then I will learn how to use whatever equations are required for me to integrate that into my job, at that usually involves trends of measured noise levels and work duration, rather than me using pure logarithms. Whilst in the military I was in construction too, and the maths that I needed were, areas and volume, speed/time equations, percentages and the usual division multiplication etc etc... all to do with fuel requirements, bulk earth removal and haulage, and volumes of materials required, no sines cosines or logarithms there. As far as firing projectiles down the range, that was just aim at the target, aim off for any wind adjust for any known deviation of aim of the weapon and squeeze the trigger, all made far easier if your first few rounds were tracer just watch the strike and aim off...no maths there, Oh I appreciate that the weapon designer used maths to evaluate the flight parabola of the projectile and the maths used in judging pressures involved in the containment of the gases produced, If you got a massive thump in the shoulder and in my case little chips being taken out of my spectacles, then you had the gas plug closed to much and you just turned it a notch or two...but I with my finger on the trigger didnt use any maths apart from counting my rounds. As a pilot, I had to learn a lot of equations such as boyles law, and equations of thrust velocity lift and drag, these were required to pass exams in aerodynamics, however when I actually fly I use mental arithmatic to judge fuel quantities and time remaining on track, I know that air pressure decreases/increases with change of temperature, I know that temperature decreases/increases with change of altitude, but in reality I look at my instruments and listen to Air traffic control for the information I require such as ambient air pressure (used to set the altimeter, and wind velocities. So basically without being an aircraft designer why did I need to know all the aerodynamics equations? I am glad you are so comfortable with,and enjoy, maths the way you do, I wish i did when i was younger, however I still believe that the majority of us were and still are taught stuff that only a minority will use. >>By BushisaManiac ooops sorry my last post was perhaps a bit too lenghty for what I tried to put across... "Have there always been people this sick and camera phones have made it worse/more public? Or is it new?" Flagg there has always been violent crimes and the levels havent really changed over the years, the perpertrators do seem to be getting younger though, and obviously media such as camera phones, make it real and in your face. and easily reportable in the mass media. I knew a guy who was a copper in North Kent in the 1950's he once told me that there were always fights outside certain pubs, there were always rapes and the odd murder or two, being just as vicious in nature as nowadays. The thing that was different was the amount of media coverage and the depth of coverage. A number of years back I remember all sorts of learned people talking about violent videos being responsible and I thought bollocks, I have watched similar vids and I dont feel the need to rape pillage and murder, however when you look at some of the gratuitous violence for the sake of violence, hollywood does glamourise it all, and now its the same with playstation games. They are so gory and explicit, how can you expect some of these numbnuts who know no different, whom have no parental guidance, whom have no moral standards impressed on them, to see that its not normal behaviour!! It doesnt excuse what they do and I for one would love to see the death penalty brough back (oooh now theres a contencious point) maybe it would disuade them, maybe not , but it would certainly cut out some of the second offences !! >>By BushisaManiac "Where does California rank? Well, non-English speakers reside here(by the millions)---would you like to guess?? There are businesses here in Orange County that have the following sign posted in a front window, "English spoken here."" I'm pretty much certain it's possible to be literate, numerate, comprehend science and not speak English lv2read. Are then suggesting your Californian education system disadvantages non-English speakers? Or perhaps that any evaluation system employed in California is institutionally racist to the disadvantage of your Spanish speakers? Or those pesky foreigners doing the survey were rude enough to include minority groups results to make our super-well-educated proper American kids look poorly-served or intrinsically dumb? Or ......what exactly? BIAM I admit I'm struggling to think of some everyday situation where a person would really suffer through not knowing about say simple harmonic motion or ballistics or suchlike let alone matrices or calculus. I have sometimes used some stuff like Fourier analysis or harmonic series when I work with musicians/recording engineers to explain why instruments sound as they do or get the most from audio equipment, admittedly just as with your example of using an "experienced eye" when shooting it is perfectly possible to get the same result by another route. It's often struck me that most of education is really designed as a preparation for the next level of education in our system! >>By planet ear Planet Ear: Can you take a written exam for a driver's license in England in ANY language OTHER than English? For a barrister's license/permit......and on and on. Are you confused and surprised that the language of the US is English? Language binds the community. We have x number of dollars for education and ALL must take English and many elect to study a 'foreign' language as well. Here we go again PE, restating the obvious, if you permanently re4locate to France, Germany, Russia, etc. you had better learn the language. <<<I'm pretty much certain it's possible to be literate, numerate, comprehend science and not speak English lv2read.>>> You are being stupid again!!! If you don't speak English in America it may be difficult, if not impossible, to learn science or much else. What is your problem? TCHOCK <<<& if we use the maclaurin's series we can find a pretty exact value for sinx e^x cosx>>>> Methinks you are way off track here. Does anyone other than me comprehend the absurdity of her post? Why did you overlook the seeming paradox of Pearsonian skewness?? Who are you trying to snow (American for confounding/to confound)? >>By lv2read BiaM I think it comes back to what's already been said: the parents have to be responsible for their kids. The BBFC now give certificates to games as well as films. Grand Theft Auto 3 had the nationally recognised, official, highly distinctive 18 logo on it, and some woman still let her fourteen-year-old son play it, and then she went on TV and bitched her head off when her son was killed by his friend, allegedly because they played Grand Theft Auto. People need to understand that video games are not what they used to be. I think the problem is people who don't play them think of them as all being Space Invaders or Super Mario. They're not for kids anymore, they're a serious form of entertainment just like films. What evidence there is to suggest violence in the media leads to violence in real life has been TOTALLY blown out of all proportion by the press, particularly shitty right-wing newspapers like the Daily Mail. >>By Flagg Oh yes and the death penalty... heheh, I'm not gonna start arguing with you about that. It might lead to World War 3. >>By Flagg commit murder- found guilty -get hanged, commit rape or sexual child abuse- found guilty - castration, quite simple really, whats wrong with that? there are some caveats of course but they will come later. >>By BushisaManiac As for rape, check out this link, what a marvelous invention, I reckon every woman should be given one of these : - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9145415/ >>By BushisaManiac What's wrong with it? Well I could spend half an hour quoting Gandhi and calling you a sick-minded barbarian... or I could stick to what I already said and NOT argue with you. >http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9145415/ That's something women could abuse. Men would never feel safe again. >>By Flagg oh so I guess murderers, like peter Sutcliffe and Ian Huntley deserve to live, whilst we the Tax payer pays for their continued existence, all for the sake of what?.. humanity? ...what humanity was shown to the victims? so a quick clean hanging or lethal injection is barbaric compared to whacking the victims with a hammer or ripping them open with a knife... yes lets keep them in prison so that in 10 years or so the 'model' prisoner can be released to do it again if they so wish. Obviously the notorious prisoners like Sutcliffe and Huntley will never be released, but what about the scores of other murderers!! as I said there are caveats to imposing a death sentence... but certain criminals should be executed just as they 'execute' their victims As for the anti-rape condom, what sort of men wouldn't feel safe? rapists or perhaps those who don't beleive that no means no, in which case who cares if they dont feel safe? well apart from you obviously! >>By BushisaManiac Death penalties are always a really contentious subject , and my views are if you are going to impose it you have to be beyond certainty of guilt, which is very difficult indeed . I personally would not like to have to sit on a jury in one of these cases my conscience would simply not permit. I am aware that life imprisonment places a large burden on the taxpayer , but to be honest 40 /50/ 60 plus years behind bars for instance , contemplating your crime for every single day /hour / minute in solitary confinement is in my opinion a harder option to face than a "humane " - here one minute - gone the next - death ......... well i believe so. >>By wreckin krew wreckin krew is right. >whilst we the Tax payer pays for their continued existence, all for the sake of what?.. humanity? yes, humanity. >oh so I guess murderers, like peter Sutcliffe and Ian Huntley deserve to live deserve doesn't come into it. they should live because it's wrong to kill someone. it's just as wrong for a judge to order someone's death as it is for anyone to murder anyone else. >so a quick clean hanging or lethal injection is barbaric compared to whacking the victims with a hammer or ripping them open with a knife... i'm sure there are different ways to define barbaric. in my opinion it's barbaric to kill someone whether you do it quickly and painlessly or not. and hanging isn't clean. >yes lets keep them in prison so that in 10 years or so the 'model' prisoner can be released to do it again if they so wish. i'm not saying it's right that they get out. i'm certainly not saying the system in place is good, but it's a hell of a lot better than killing people. all i mean is, killing is bad right? well it has to stop somewhere. i don't expect you to understand, i've encountered your robotic sense of right and wrong before of course, but seriously... two wrongs DON'T make a right. >>By Flagg Hahah, and castration most definitely IS barbaric, by any definition. >As for the anti-rape condom, what sort of men wouldn't feel safe? rapists or perhaps those who don't beleive that no means no, in which case who cares if they dont feel safe? well apart from you obviously! You're implying I think that non-consenting sex is ok? How low can you get? >>By Flagg From what I could find on the net, before the abolition of the death penalty there was once case of a convicted murderer being reprieved only to murder again (he was reprieved a second time too), since it has been abolished there have been over 70 convicted murderers being released from a life sentence (serving an average of only 10 years) before killing again. So what about the humanity of the victims, what about justice for their loved ones? guess it doesn't really matter eh!! oh tragic and all that but as long as we dont be beastly to the murderers!! Who says killing is wrong, oh the bible.... so all wars are wrong are they? we should have appeased Hitler 'cos to kill his troops defeat his Army and crush his plans would have been so inhuman.... er wrong matey!! What about legal euthanaisia, giving a merciful end to someone's pain wracked tormented life, or the turning off of life support machines because although the body is still alive the brain is just a vegetable, are they wrong too? it costs more money to feed a prisoner than it does a schoolchild, it probably costs more money to house a prisoner than care for an OAP in a care home... but hey who gives a shite about the quality of life for schoolkids and OAP's as long as we are not nasty to those poor misguided murderers!! As wreckin krew said you have to be 100% sure, thats where the dealth penalty and the role the Home Office played in it failed in the past. >>By BushisaManiac |