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| Discussion: Jack I hope you *were* joking about the weed and coke. That shit's grown by slaves trapped in medieval feudalism-type setups. It's not ok when some londoner claims to be all 'resist the capitalist vultures' and won't eat at McDonald's but buys cocaine to be a renegade. >>By Flagg You're spot on about the coke, Flagg. I guess if it were legal maybe those who grow the raw material would be treated fairly, but then again there's enough coke heads as it is. As for weed, I understand that a lot of the weed in the western U.S. comes by way of Mexico and Central America, but the good stuff generally comes from Vancouver, Northern Cali, or in most of the Eastern U.S., indoor growers who buy seeds from Canada and the Netherlands. Imported weed is generally crap. Or so I've heard. >>By Just Jon Legalize drugs??? Don't be crazy. & would the people who grow the 'raw material' be treated fairer if it were legalized??? uhhhh i don't think so.......... does anyone who takes drugs ever think where that drug money goes to??? gee i wonder funding brothels - with girls literally kidnapped from their families funding other crime while the guy at the top puts his feet up & doesn't give a damn unless he's not making enough $$$ >>By Tchock Could be many drug-takers think about that but it's not a strong enough image to overcome the addiction. Although maybe that doesn't go for weed. No, I don't think those producing it would be treated fairer if it were legalized, at least not many of them would. Nike trainers are legal after all. But if drugs were legal then they could at least be taxed. I'm not saying the government is by any means the best bunch of people to deal with money produced by that kind of thing, but at least if the industry were legal then *some* of the money could go into helping people who want to stop. Still, I know what you're saying and I'm not at all convinced about legalising drugs. I'm sure there are alot of people who only don't get addicted *because* it's against the law. I think though, the biggest problem in Britain is that we pretend not to have a problem. In at least one European country they have machines on the walls of clubs that you can put an LSD tab or a pill in and it analyses it and tells you exactly what's in it. If our government proposed something like that the tabloids would go nuts, it would be all we'd hear about for months, because this country is such an old-fashioned, authoritarian, up-its-own-arse, common-sense-denying pile of shit. IMHO. >>By Flagg Don't get me wrong, guys. The only drug I'm positive should be legalised is marijuana. The thought of the "hard stuff" being legal is scary indeed. Even with weed, I'm saying if you're gonna buy it, buy it from someone in your own country who grows at home. You get better quality and you're not funding evil bastards. >>By Just Jon Even in this country alot of the weed that's grown is grown by illegal immigrants who are being exploited. Similar to pirate DVDs, some gang tells them 'either you work for me for next to nothing or I report you.' >>By Flagg hmmm well i don't know much about Marjuana & it's effects but cannibas.............. the effects are not so much a violent overdose such as in heroin or cocaine usage but they are more elongated - years of usage can affect your mind so if such drug was legalized.................. what exactly would happen??? it's ridiculous yeah there are some out there who don't much mind if they're head goes numb but if such drugs were made legal then the government would be saying "yeah - ok - do that if you want" which is fine for THIS generation yeah - they've got it some may want to take it some may not but it'll be on the shelves & twenty years down the line when they are showing signs of paranoia & possibly schizophrenia THEN the problems will start "why didn't the government STOP it??" but even worse would happen you've got kids growing up in a society where they think they can take this drug & the same thing will happen to them the law is there for a reason & although there are times where i disagree with it it is there to protect us too but then again i suppose the human race is going numb in the head anyway.................. it's just a matter of WHAT drug........... & the choice is not just the material substance.................. >>By Tchock There is surely an argument that in the instance of cannibis which is very widely used that it funds criminal fraternity here precisely BECAUSE it's illegal? In much the same way as alcohol prohibition arguably helped the Mafia achieve greater power in the States. It's a tricky situation when an illegal drug becomes largely socially acceptable (or a socially accepted drug illegal!) Equally where should the State draw the line? Alcohol can be pretty destructive too, or poor diet/fast food for that matter....... I'm a little sceptical about drug barons using their money to subsidize prostitution too as an argument against drug use... I would imagine the same kind of people would have an interest in either/both activities sure, but in the long term if there is a profitable market for either service it will be made independently available surely? I haven't fully made my mind up but my inclination at present is towards decriminalisation of cannibis rather than outright legalisation. The last Royal Commission favoured this approach as I recall but with the exception of the Lib Dems the mainstream political parties bucked the advice for fear of media backlash I guess.... >>By planet ear Planet Ear is right. Tchock, cigarettes and alcohol kill people every day. Why are they legal? Surely being dead is worse than being paranoid or having symptoms of schizophrenia. Regardless of practical considerations about what would happen if drugs were legal, I think it's wrong that in this country smoking and drinking are perfectly normal and ok, but drug dealers are up there with pedophiles and terrorists as some of the most hated and feared people in the country. Parents are terrified that their kids will take drugs, but plenty of parents smoke cigarettes, and plenty die of lung cancer. I think the fact that these things are illegal is what scares people. Doesn't matter how much of the science the public are told, they just can't think for themselves about it. Yes, it's bad that people are illegally getting rich by cultivating and selling harmful drugs, but it's at least as bad that people are LEGALLY getting rich by cultivating and selling another kind of harmful drug. If you DO regard the practical considerations, then I'm really not sure, as I think there would definitely be a rise in the number of people taking drugs, if they were legalised. It's a pretty complex subject. >>By Flagg Oh and uh, heh, I think the human race has *always* been numb in the head. >>By Flagg Wow! Someone thinks I'm right about something :) I was beginning to think from experiences on ( ahem ) "another board" that wasn't possible round these parts ;) Nice that it's civilised here when ppl disagree ... I think Tchock is right to be concerned, I'm just not sure of the extent or solution to the problem. Anything else you want to throw into the stew Tchock/others? >>By planet ear well yeah cigarrettes are just as bad as alcohol & to be honest i'm a little pissed off with the fact that up here in Bonnie Scotland that they ONLY made it illegal to smoke in indoor public places. Now you've got hotels & restaurants & bars investing in lovely terraces that are completely inhospitable to non-smokers & every time you walk into a pub/restaurant/pass by one in the street there's a huddle of smokers leering at you when you walk in you have to hold your breath just to get into the place having said that it IS lovely when you're inside & you can breathe without choking (almost literally) to death. sorry- that rant came out of no where...... but getting back on track yes - you are right planet ear cigarrettes & alcohol ARE as bad as drugs but i suppose so is too much salty/fatty foods too much chocolate too much sugar now you can't exactly regulate the sugar-intake of every person - that is a breach of their human right. IF they want to be fat & unfit i guess that's their choice ......... it's tricky this ok remove ALL governments, laws, restrictions etc till we're just a bunch of animals roaming the earth who's to say we CAN'T roll up this cannibas leaf & set fire to it (or whatever happens with it.... i don't know) hmmmmmm actually in the Inca Empire - they used to EAT the plant cocaine comes from to help them get an energy boost............ & stave off the effects of altitude sickness.... hmmmmm i don't know... today i'm of the opinion that people who take drugs KNOW the risks to themselves........ so why not indulge......... but it's not just about them is it???? like smokers - the smoke doesn't just affect them, it affects all those around them............. if you get fat & have a heart attack - it's really only down to you....... (well in most cases.... sometimes people claim to have 'conditions') maybe it's a bit unfair to just give up throw the towel in & bugger off into my own world & wait for the three consectutive winters without summer in between.......... no matter what happens there'll always be people who take drugs or drink excessively or eat four helpings of chocolate cake i guess we can only guide people into making choices such as take drugs/don't take drugs all i know is that i would never want to take drugs & would never want my family/loved ones to take them the same way i wouldn't want my future daughter drinking heavily one night & waking up confused not know WHAT she had done.............. but should it all come down to personal choice???? because we're all individuals who some centuries ago coined this idea of government - of law & of society in the end it's all really something in our heads anyway........ something to stop us going mad no doubt....... maybe it's a bit like the whole McDonalds fiasco a few years ago now i'm not a fan of old McDonalds - i have been in there once in my life, and about turned within seconds............ & i am not too keen on the fact that this 'restaurant' gets everywhere.......... it ruins individual cultures..... but enough on globalization............ now McDonalds food hygiene may be something to be desired......... but regardless of that it was the that that their food was far too fatty etc (& maybe that they didn't have enough dead-cow in their Hamburger..... or is a Hamburger made of Mr.Pig???) anyway so people were moaning that McDonalds was making them fat & that film came out where the guy ate nothing but McDonalds for a month or something & there was a big uproar demanding less fatty foods..... my thoughts were ok - it's not compulsory you go there you don't HAVE to eat out of McDonalds if you DON'T like the food - then you DON'T have to go & who the hell eats McDonalds every day anyway- that film (not seen it mind you) seems a load of nonsense. I'm sure the guy wouldn't feel too well if he ate nothing but crisps for a month the point i'm trying to make is ok - so you want to eat, but you don't want fatty foods DON'T go to McDonalds so you want to have fun, but you don't want to take drugs then DON'T take them other people might want to eat out of McDonalds- fine they might like that food on offer but its the same for drugs some people might like it........ although in the case of heroin isn't it that the first 'shot' is always the 'best' & you keep on aiming for that...............??? so everyone knows that in general McDonalds food is quite fatty & everyone knows that if you get fat you get unhealthy you're heart grows weaker & you can't run too fast & all sorts of health problems people KNOW the risks but they eat fatty foods anyway everyone SHOULD know the risks of taking drugs but they still take them & maybe that's part of the 'fun' of taking drugs i dont' know............. am i making myself clear... it's kinda rambling....?????? >>By Tchock perfectly clear, but you seem to have gone back on yourself. you were arguing fiercely against drugs being legalised, now you're saying we are all individuals and need to make our own decisions about these things. wouldn't that be easier if they were legal? it's a very good film, supersize me. the point he makes is that mcdonald's is aimed so much at children, that's the main point. see, this a (nother) problem with capitalism. it's all very well saying it's just a legitimate business, same as any other, and no one has to eat at mcdonald's if they don't want to. but its advertising campaigns lead to a less healthy population, overall. therefore it *is* a problem. >>By Flagg I think Flagg's point about advertising is very pertinent, clearly historically for example cigarettes were advertised as having health benefits (and little if any mention was made of the negative side effects of use) I understand that kind of advertiszing is misleading and not legally acceptable, there are rules that we have in place concerning the basic truthfulness of advertising (I understand for example if goods in a shop are advertised at a certain price there are rules concerning those goods actually being available at that price... which seems fair enough). I think I read somewhere that nicotine can be demonstrated to ward off premature senility... whether that only means the smoker is more likely to be fully aware of any lung problems resulting from use seems to me a relevant question in the case of smoking ;) >>By planet ear Heh, or perhaps it means you probably won't live long enough to go senile. >>By Flagg Hehehe.... I s'pose it depends which you fear more: death or senility! Such freedom! ;) >>By planet ear I have never seen anyone 'high' on weed go out and beat the shite out of someone 'cos they said the wrong thing or had the wrong look or were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, I have never seen anyone 'high' do stupid things to make themselves look good, I have never seen a bunch of 'pot heads' kick off and beat each other up.... alcohol though ....mmmmmm ....get my point? The only thing I have seen people high on cannabis attack is packs of 'munchies' even so far as to clear the fridge of all the other shite that no-one wants to eat anyway. Parents fear cannabis, weed, marijuana, call it what you will , cos they believe it will lead to harder drugs. There are weak people who will be lead to harder drugs, but the fact that they have tried pot is not a definite pre-curser to heroin and crack cocaine 'soft' drugs should be legalised, because of the ridicluous drain on resources that fighting cannabis is on the Police and crown prosecution services, but in saying that the government would tax it to the hilt and and then the drain on resources would only be perpetuated in fighting 'tax evasion' well thats my tuppence worth anyway >>By BushisaManiac Do you think it's as expensive to fight tax evasion as it is to fight soft drugs? I don't have a clue, but I think it sounds like a really good idea. Also, if cannabis and marijuana were legal but coke and heroin weren't, then lots of people might draw the line before they got to the hard stuff, if you see what I mean. >>By Flagg I think the notion that various "soft" drugs leads to more seriously damaging usage might only be valid in as much as the soft drug user has to involve him/herself with pushers to obtain the soft drugs in the first place. After all not many ppl would seriously consider banning alcohol because of it's role in a chain of drug abuse. You can safely go to the majority of pubs without fear of being offered crack cocaine I think! Legalised (or decriminalised) cannibis for example might arguably reduce the influence of pushers in harder drug use? >>By planet ear Could be. If the government was gonna change anything to do with drug laws, that's what I'd like to see: cannabis and marijuana legalised. Oh yes, I have a response now to something you said earlier p.e. ''Wow! Someone thinks I'm right about something :) I was beginning to think from experiences on ( ahem ) "another board" that wasn't possible round these parts'' Well this board isn't run by a pair of prejudiced teenagers with delusions of grandeur ;) SLANDER!! Someone lecture me, quickly! >>By Flagg Thanks for that observation Flagg. The conversation seems much more intelligent, reasoned and ego-free here in present cyber company. I understand slander legally has several forms along with its close relatives defamation and and libel, like most things in our UK legal system it is rather complex and I'm afraid doesn't really permit a "quick lecture". In essence and very much in laypersons terms (so don't quote me to a lawyer please!) it is deliberately spreading a falsehood with intent to damage the victim's reputation or interests (it is usually though spoken word historically... I'm not sure what status a conversation on an internet board has at present or indeed whether there are legal precedents in that area). What it ISN'T is stating your honest opinion however derogatory vulgar or offensive that may be (although there are other laws concerning that kind of activity if one were pathetic enough to be inciting racial hatred for example) Maybe "some prejudiced teenagers" should try a little herb? ;) >>By planet ear Thanks for clearing up the slander thing. Don't be too quick to thank me though, my latest response on the dreaded emo board includes you in its target audience. >>By Flagg In fact I'm rather proud of it. You know, I think we should have a discussion about discussions. It strikes me as a very strange way of spending one's time, arguing on the internet, but here we are. >>By Flagg My thought on internet discussions: In real life, I wouldn't talk to you this way. Then again, I wouldn't be hanging out with you in the first place. >>By Just Jon No worries Flagg, I joined in there because I felt I wanted to add a dissenting voice to the near consensus of opinion, I do try to take an interest in all music to some extent even the stuff I don't particularly like or "get", but sure I'd read the board for the most part rather than contribute in that instance. I did honestly begin to wonder about the mental state of some of the participants tho. I haven't read CP, but thought that idea you presented was rather akin to Catch 22 :) >>By planet ear Ah, perhaps I'll read Catch 22 then. It can go on the list. Maybe I'll get round to reading it when I'm like, 32. >>By Flagg I keep trying to read it but get distracted by some other book about halfway through as it's something of an epic... * casts eye over post to look for slanderous phrases. heheheh ;) >>By planet ear well BIAM - you're right. Alcohol - although socially acceptable - does far greater damage when used in excess.......... In Britain certainly - we have a Binge Drinking kinda culture - as we are ALL aware.......... drink to get drunk why??? you see images of people falling over on pavements because they've had too much to drink - fighting, DRIVING & i don't know what else as soon as the pubs close in Glasgow the Neds come out armed with Kantana's and Machete's & begin having sword fights in the middle of the street. & yet we think DRUGS are more dangerous??? but maybe i suppose you can happily drink a pint of Guinness & not succumb to random violence...........one shot of heroin, one snort of cocaine.......... & you've got very little control.... I don't know. I'm not into alcohol at all - I like one drink in fact - so i really don't know what it's *all about*. (gonna hope no one from my ex-school's reading this.....) at my school certain people i know - friends - they drink to get drunk. They don't like the taste of alcohol.... they just drink it for its effects. That surely the problem with alcohol? Most adults drink a bottle of wine for pleasure - it's taste (although personally it's disgusting). but with kids - & to be honest some adults - it's just a means to becoming drunk. Not TOO long ago I along with a few classmates attended a 'Maths Camp'. It was meant to be fun - maths lectures in the morning, outdoor activities in the afternoon...... & a ceidlh at night........ so four people (three of them from my school) decided they'd take the car to Tescos & buy some cheap alcohol & get drunk in their room (which happened to be MY room). They were in there from about 7pm to 3am. After they were caught the two girls proceeded in drinking the rest of the stashed whiskey & vodka IN the toilet. How eloquent & sophisticated the youth of today............. I'm thinking my Fresher's Week is going to be MUCH worse. Scotland's not actually got 24hr pubs - so how is it down in Englandshire?? Is it worsening the situation, or do people think "oh, i've got more time to drink this beer"?? My thoughts are : people would say "oh yeah - we can drink MORE now !!!" & those who drink a lot in such a short time will go on to do it because i don't know..... in the *movies* it's portrayed as "fun"??? & to be honest how many people (with jobs) can really stay up late drinking anyway - if they want a pint or two, they'll stay for the same amount of time as they would normally - as they still have to get up in the morning......................... i personally didn't see the point in the legislation..........how many pubs haven taken up the idea??? Alcohol is essentially a drug - a socially acceptable drug. It's about as socially acceptable as a greasy, slimy politician - we all are aware we dislike him & what he stands for, but we vote for him nonetheless. >>By Tchock Oh yeah. & R.I.P Steve Irwin. Can't imagine how his family must feel........................... >>By Tchock I remember a conversation I had a few years ago about Steve Irwin, and someone said 'Sooner or later he's gonna die if he keeps doing this'. R.I.P indeed. He could be an icon. Anyway, I think the problem with binge drinking is about the people doing it, not alcohol itself, and it's the same with all drugs: different people react different ways. I went to a party a while back with a bunch of people drinking... VERY heavily and doing drugs (hard and soft) and everything was cool. I was offered something and said 'Nope' and they went 'Cool' and that was that. I guess I associate with the right people. So I don't believe drugs are evil. As with most things, people seem to be the problem. Still, to legalise drugs and then trust people to use them responsibly sounds like science fiction. I think I would still be for legalising (or decriminalising) the soft drugs. And where the hell do chavs get katanas?? That's disgraceful. >>By Flagg |