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| Discussion: Jack >Yes, Lebanese will die IF they permit such assaults to take place. And how exactly does a Lebanese civilian, a child maybe, PERMIT their country (or a group working from within their country) to do anything at all??? >>By Flagg And how exactly does a Lebanese civilian, a child maybe, PERMIT their country (or a group working from within their country) to do anything at all???>>> And, why aren't the Lebanese citizems asking the 'obvious' question: Why does my legitimate government permit Hezbolla extremists to jeopardize the safety and security of our women and children? FLAGG Your thoughts are on track...but don't 'stop' prematurely. >>By lv2read You disgust me lv2read. >>By planet ear I wonder why MY legitimate government jeopardizes the safety and security of Iraqi civilians, even though pretty much the entire country is against it (those who care at all one way or the other.) Actually I wonder about alot of the stuff my legitimate government does but there's fuck all I can do about it. You think the Lebanese citizens have any control at all over what their government allows or disallows?? You think governments ANYWHERE care about the people they govern? Now who's naive? >>By Flagg Deaf Ear: This board is for big people. Flagg: In a Democracy majority rules....but not by the minute, or by the day. We don't have coups and our institutions, generally speaking, are very stable. And, yes, the people--who are the government--care. Do your parents, your friends, your instructors in school, hold similar views as you do?? You live in a very civilized society, where conveniences abound, where children from Asia, Latin America would die to have 10% of what is available to/for you (opportunities, not benefits). Have you heard the expression, Count your blessings...... You are sounding more like Maniac and Deaf Ear every day. They are negative to the nth degree and they've had years to arrive at those views. Wherein your case, everything is in front of you---there for the taking. My suggestion: Thrive. Special Note Isn't it amazing how the Iranian leader has laid low after the unanimous security council action taken against N. Korea. I like the company that I keep!!! Do you think that the Mullah believes that America is bluffing?? I think not. And we are NOT. Also, haven't heard much from loud mouth Hugo Chavez of Venezuela lately. Let me guess....he can't back up his stupid words???? I support President Bush fully, but Ronald Reagan's leadership weighs heavily on my mind----I wish he was still around. >>By lv2read What you're saying is I should ignore what's wrong with my country - and in fact with the rest of the world - because I have the freedom to go to Sainsbury's and buy whatever kind of food I want. We have reason to be negative. You keep telling us that everything is fine here in the west, but it's not. In Britain the political parties have big computers that show maps of the country colour-coded by the beliefs of the majority of people living in each region. They choose the regions they think they can persuade and tailor their promises to appeal to the people living in those regions. That's why they all promise the same things. No politician believes in what they're saying, they say whatever will get them the most votes. So yes, I would rather live here than in a dictatorship, but your insistence that democracy is perfect, or that we should feel any kind of gratitude towards our governments, is utter bullshit. >>By Flagg >Deaf Ear: This board is for big people. And this shows your blazing hypocrisy, again. After the first big argument on this board you left and said you wouldn't come back because you were tired of being insulted. But all you do is patronise people. He made a perfectly clear, honest, simple statement - you could have asked him exactly *why* he feels that way about you, and when he answered you, you could have tried to counter his argument. But no, you'd rather patronise him like you patronise me and Tchock for being young. Pathetic. >>By Flagg Flagg: Your negativity is appauling all the more because you are young. And it is this time of your life that you'll look back and revel at the opportunities and your accomplishments. What is utter BS is your time honored giving up and giving in to your frustrations. When 'Deaf Ear' uses the term 'disgust' I answer him in kind. If I were to be civil with someone like that, they perceive it as weakness and continue their barrage. With him offense is the best defense. What you call perfectly clear honest statements may be to your generation, but it is name-calling to mine. And when adults resort to labelling like that, cvivility is not an option. You may think that it is, but it isn't. When you imply the whole system is corrupt....your statement is so broad that one does not know where to begin (in order to) point out the fallacy of what you believe. You have the right to believe anything that you want, but mere belief does not makes those principles accurate, or credible OR honest. Permit me to give you some answers. 1. You are a resident of one of the greatest nations on earth. 2. Tony Blair is well regarded world wide. I admire him immensely. 3. Britain's standard of living is envied in many countries. 4. Your educational system, pursuit of the arts, literature (second to none) and other disciplines is legendary. 5. Perhaps you want to make your country even better. If you participate and work within the system you can have a tremendous affect. Patronizing here?? Don't be stupid!!! 6. And my list above could go on forever, time and space permitting. >>By lv2read Flagg: I almost forgot >Deaf Ear: This board is for big people.>>> You got me there. This will sound like an excuse---and maybe it is---but Planet Ear 'walks in the door and throws common sense out the window'........figuratively speaking, and I was intimating that he is turning a 'deaf ear' to logic AND common sense. But, you are right to point out that that was not big of me to do so. What's fair is fair. The point goes to Flagg. >>By lv2read None of those things contradict what I said about how our political parties choose their policies. Ok, what I said, I saw on a documentary. I saw things that certainly *appeared* to be evidence. I honestly can't think of a reason why someone would invent something like that and report it as fact. Tony Blair is not so popular in his own country. I am sure our standard of living *is* envied, alot of people seem to come here. The fact that these people are let down alot of the time is a point against Britain, and the fact that they get a load of abuse from retards who insist we're under attack by an army of immigrants, is another point against. The education system we've been over and over, and I won't waste my time explaining why it's a complete joke. I agree that Britain has produced alot of great art and literature, but I don't see what this has to do with the point I made about British politics. As for number 5, well... I think the answer is ''mu''. I could only answer that on your terms and since I disagree with most of what you've said so far... >What you call perfectly clear honest statements may be to your generation, but it is name-calling to mine. Hah, well I'm glad my generation is more open-minded and less quick-to-anger than yours. >>By Flagg Well thank you for conceding that, I do appreciate it, and I'm not being sarcastic. Oh yes and... >Your negativity is appauling all the more because you are young. And it is this time of your life that you'll look back and revel at the opportunities and your accomplishments. What is utter BS is your time honored giving up and giving in to your frustrations. Actually I'm fairly optimistic about my future. In fact I feel utterly priveleged right now (but I certainly don't owe that to my country or the way it's run). Anyway, I'm not the kind of person to sit back and think ''well that's ok then'' once I've got my life sorted out. If the system looks wrong to me, I will say so. >>By Flagg L2R--you want Reagan back? So I assume you support Saddam Hussein, you think giving arms to Iran is a good idea, and you REALLY like OBL and his cohorts in Afghanistan...Because that's exactly what Reagan's policies were. As a Jew, did you like Reagan's "leadership" when he honoured the SS dead in Germany? >>By Just Jon JJ The world was a different place in 1980---Reagan was [erfect for his time. Reagan may have armed Iran; I do not remember, But the world recognizes President Reagans role in the subsequent dismantling of the USSR---whereupon Moscow became an ally instead of the perennial arch enemy. And, no, I was miffed at Reagan's presence at Bergen-Belsen (is that correct?), but a President has many constitutents. If I recall, the cemetary had less than 10 SS members buried there----out of 1500 interred. (You may correct me if I'm wrong here.) I also remember Margaret Thatcher's words to the affect that Reagan was a bone fide WORLD leader. I wonder what Libya's Kadaffy would say. Was he ever heard from again after Reagan's wake-up call?? Flagg Yes, each generation appears to more open minded than its parents generation. But there is still debate on whether or not all changes are good. >>By lv2read I'm sure not *all* the changes are good, but not taking offense at a perfectly honest statement has to be good doesn't it? I mean, we're not talking about a childish insult or any kind of slanderous accusations. He just told you what effect you have on him. >>By Flagg FLAGG <<<I mean, we're not talking about a childish insult or any kind of slanderous accusations. He just told you what effect you have on him.>>> No! Nothing you have said, either in 'flork' messwages or on this board disgusts me. Nor have anything I wrote disgust him or anyone else. You want 'disgust'....try listening to Cuban revolutionaries...Hamas operatives....and others of that ilk. We are civilized boys sharing differences...and WE have common roots. There is nothing evil, dangerous, stupid about your views...they are merely different from mine. The greates disparity (for me) was with Greenfyre (sp??) and his views (especially on homosexuality) don't disgust me. We differ in viewpoint is all. Planet Ear does not have a 'LEG' to stand on----bad pun. There are no grounds for disgust. Re the Lebanese----their government is their responsibility; not yours, not mine. One of my favorite quotes: (Pls. tell me what you think.) Golda Meir (Prime Minister of Israel in 1967) met with Egyptian leader Anwar Sadat at a neutral site after the famous 7-day war. Ms. Meier said that she'd accept his apology for killing Israeli boys/soldiers but (sje) would never forgive him for making us (Israel) kill his. >>By lv2read >There is nothing evil, dangerous, stupid about your views...they are merely different from mine. No offence but this totally contradicts the way you've argued up until now. And I don't hide the fact that some of the things you've said have disgusted *me*. >Re the Lebanese----their government is their responsibility; not yours, not mine. I know, but what I said was how can a Lebanese civilian choose what their government does at a time like this, whether it's their responsibility or not? As for the quote, I have to admit it doesn't really mean anything to me. It seems to be something personal for Golda Meir. >>By Flagg Well, Meir's quote just puts the moral blame on her enemies. Not that I don't admire her, but the whole Israel/Arab thing is just sickening. You've two groups of assholes who think God is on their side. The Jewish people certainly deserved a homeland, but I think Germany would have been the fitting choice, all things considered. Notions of traditional land, etc., are idiotic to me. My relatives all came from France on one side and Ireland on the other, and I don't give a rat's ass about either country or culture. I qualify for tribal membership in the Paiute tribe because my grandmother was half, but I won't join and wouldn't...I didn't grow up that way and I hate people who claim some sort of cultural connection to a society they've had no part in. Thus I ask, L2R, can you actually trace relatives to pre-1949 Israel? I'm gonna guess not. Jews decided to leave what became Israel because it's mostly desert surrounded by boy-f**king, camel-riding idiots. Jews as a whole agreed to claim that land as their own after WW2, knowing full well they would be surrounded by carpet-sniffing fanatics. I don't think anyone had the best interest of the Jews or the Arabs in mind in creating the modern state of Israel, and I repeat my belief that patriotism is a belief surpassed in stupidity only by religion. >>By Just Jon And I used the word "belief" twice in that last sentence. That sounded really crappy. I apologize for the poor writing. >>By Just Jon I agree, patriotism is ridiculous. Every country has done good things and bad things, there is no country where the population is united. Patriotism is about denying the vast differences between individuals, differences which make themselves clear to us (and piss us off) every day. Actually, broadly speaking, I find religion to be more credible than patriotism. >>By Flagg Well JJ some religious people use it as a veil (no pun intended re current debate in UK) to protect their thoughts from from challenge. Equally some may use their beliefs to spur themselves to "live better", William Wilberforces' campaign to abolish the slave trade, inspired by his beliefs, and the Christian Socialist movement of the 19th century would seem to me to be examples of this. I accept you may feel the balance of desirable and undesirable outcomes tips the scale the other way. Indeed if I lived in the USA where a Christian Fundamentalist/ Neo-Conservative right were gaining greater voice and influence I think I might feel more inclined to share your view, but clearly I don't. People often develop core beliefs and values which are so deeply ingrained in their language and thoughts that they cannot easily see the world through other eyes. Whether it is patriotism, a Faith, Marxism, belief in Science and Reason and "Progress", Capitalism, or some other of the many available "creeds" all "observants" tend to have difficulty when asked to justify their belief system to observants of another creed since a differing set of hierarchies of moral priorities obligations presnts itself as a barrier. For example I find the notion, hinted at by lv2read, that the general population of Lebanon are a legitimate target for the forces of Israel since, even as a newborn, they had parents who failed to persuade their government to sufficiently contain the acts of a terrorist/freedom fighter organisation who also occupy their state to satisfy the demands of a billigerant Israeli Right, disgusting. It is notoriously difficult to prevent guerilla forces acting in your nation (witness the recent activities of UK Muslim Fundamentalist against our own people and the long-running campaign of the IRA) lv2read. I think there is also a case that by restricting punishment to the actual terrorists rather than the entirity of the nation it can create an avenue for a peaceful solution. Here in the UK we suffered several decades of IRA violence both in NI and on the mainland. HM Govt DIDN't launch a wholesale offensive against the Republic of Ireland, we didn't bomb the NORAID centre in New York who pretty openly engaged in funding the IRA either, and that is perhaps why we are now moving ever closer to a peaceful long-term solution..... As an aside whilst working in MoD for a period I missed being a victim of the IRA car-bomb outside the National Liberal Club only by virtue of having taken the day off! It was on my route to work and timed to catch civil servants going into work. I can honestly say it never crossed my mind that anyone should launch an air-strike against the civilian population of Dublin in retribution (Divine or otherwise!). >>By planet ear I do agree with JJ that it is a legitimate and reasonable position to question the decision to embark upon creating Israel in the first place. Questioning Zionism should not be confused with anti-semitism. As to the location of "Zion", USA was I think the prime-mover in the creation of Israeli state. Allow me this opportunity to compliment the USA (a vast, rich and largely under-populated country) in this generous act of sub-dividing someone elses' country for the purpose. ;) >>By planet ear I'm back and looking through the last weeks worth of posts I must admit I am sort of with L2R re Isreal and Lebanon. regardless of whom 'started' the independant state of Isreal, jews have been in Isreal/palastine for hundreds of years, if not centuries, so its a bit acedemic to say whether it was right of whichever government to give Palestinian land to Jews, The state of Isreal is a soveriegn state and I for one respect her right to defend herself, and whether this defence is seen as belligerent or not, with just 7 million citizens (L2R said 15 million, Wikipedia says 7 as of a May 2006 estimate) surrounded by Millions of arabic peoples, a large number of whom wish to see Isreal anhialated (spelling?) I think that Isreal doesnt have the luxury to be seen as anything other than robust in its defence. People seem to forget that there have been bombings in Isreal killing isreali citizens for longer than I can remember and I'm 41. These are men women and children blasted to bloody little chunks. men women and children maimed for life, I have never heard anyone other than governments condemn these murders, however when Isrealis kill palestinians or lebanese then theres uproar, the Isrealis are monsters... bollocks!! Hezbollah and various other factions have been doing this for years, and most recently hezbollah has been siting rocket launchers and ammunition depots in small lebanese villages and towns, not out in the sticks away from population centres, or up in the hills, I dont think that they have carried out seaborne assualts on Isreal, just attacks from within urban centres, why is this? is it to prevent the Isrealis from shooting back? I dont think so, precedent has shown that that's not Isreals way of defence. or could it be that they know civilian casualties will ensue and boy is there ever political capital to be gained from that!! So to me Hezbollah doesnt really give a shite about the citizenry it purports to protect and fight for, just as the IRA didnt give a shite from your average Irish citizen be they from the north or south. The Lebanese citizens know that Isreal has no compunctions about attacking lebanon, so why did they stay in their villages and homes, and dont say its cos they had nowhere else to go, if the wrath of a country's military is about to set leash all sorts of death in my general direction I will up sticks and move pretty damn sharpish, even if it means abandoning all and bloody walking!! However that wouldnt be showing solidarity with hezbollah would it, so how many were forced to stay? Civilian casualties are a sad fact of war in populated areas, if they havent left before hostilities start, and yes children are the most unfortunate victims of war, just as the Isreali children murdered by palestinian terrorist were, but we dont hear anyone say a word about that do we, certainly not on this board, we just hear about the murdering isreali bastards senslessly slaughtering Palestinian kids!! It has been well documented that the last Isreali invasion was perhaps the most poorly organised and poorly led certainly in my lifetime, and I often think that a lot of you here would shed no tears if Isreal would be overrun by the arabic nutters whom wish to detroy the jewish state, and regardlesss of faith, national fervour or whatever you wish to call it, Isreal has been under real threat for decades and the only thing that stops another genocide of jews is their no-nonsense belligerent stance on defence. >>By BushisaManiac >>>the only thing that stops another genocide of jews is their no-nonsense belligerent stance on defence.<<< Nope, there are still plenty of Jews in hospitable nations around the world, please be careful not to confuse questioning Zionist stance with anti-semitism BIAM. >>By planet ear PE I used the term 'genocide' in the same way that it has ALWAYS been used, genocide in WW2 did the nazis kill ALL the jews in the world...No... Rwanda, did the Hutu's kill ALL the Tutsi's.... No, Bosnia, did the Serbs kill ALL the croations/Bosnian Muslims...No, yet these attrocities were all called 'genocide', or especially in Bosnia, Kosovo etc 'ethnic cleansing'. And seeing as you use the word 'Zionist', hasn't that particular word always been associated with the jewish faith, even though it was a political movement supporting a jewish homeland , why didnt you say isreali stance, lets face it the anti 'zionist' arabs are anti-semetic. >>By BushisaManiac Bugger!!.. I have realised that I have spelt Israel wrong in every instance in the above posts, what a numpty !! >>By BushisaManiac Actually the point I'm making is a little different BIAM, if it wasn't for the current existence of Israeli state would there be any serious threat of "genocide" ? I think not..... I used Zionist because that's what I meant BIAM! Answers.com gives: Zi·on·ism (z?'?-n?z'?m) n. A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel. It may have some earlier usage of which I'm unaware (although I would be interested to learn). >>By planet ear Isn't genocide usually used when the victims are a particular race within a certain nation sytematically killed by their compatriots? Otherwise it's just war (although not necessarily "Just War") ..... >>By planet ear Great posts from both PE and BIAM. PE in particular, your post has got me re-thinking a couple of things. As to BIAM, I can't speak for anyone else here but I would indeed be quite upset if the Arabs overran Israel, and I do support their right to defend themselves. However, I think any group that thinks they're God's chosen people are "a bunch of nutters," whether we're talking Jews, Arabs, Christians, or Zoroastrians. I don't know if the conflict between Israel and her neighbors can ever be solved, but I'm willing to bet that the religious extremism on both sides ain't helping. Frankly, I care about the children on both sides--they don't know to hate and feel superior until their idiot parents teach them to--but if I had to say which side I'm on it is definitely Israel's. The Israelis sometimes kill innocents accidentally, and even kill innocents just to get to their target, but the Muslims kill innocents specifically and methodically. So yeah, the Arabs suck. I think really PE's analogy of the Brit/IRA is spot on. Fight the bad guys, not the whole population as the U.S. has chosen to do in every conflict. >>By Just Jon Thanks for your kind words JJ. >>By planet ear >>The Lebanese citizens know that Isreal has no compunctions about attacking lebanon, so why did they stay in their villages and homes, and dont say its cos they had nowhere else to go, if the wrath of a country's military is about to set leash all sorts of death in my general direction I will up sticks and move pretty damn sharpish>> Well BIAM, at certain points Israel issued dire warnings forbidding ANY traffic on the roads including medical vehicles, red cross/cresent etc it also blockaded the ports ........ kinda hard to flee in those circumstances....not sure, but I think this was in breach of various international conventions? >>By planet ear |