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| Discussion: Jack Flagg <<Still L2R, you claimed to know all about mg's motives after talking to him twice. What point are you trying to make?>>> My point was that I DON'T know him. If stated otherwise, it was a typo. I hope that the typo was obvious----will 'try' to be more careful. <<<Tchock has a better understanding of capitalism than anyone I've ever met. Oh but of course that's meaningless since I'm only 18 and I can't have met anyone important. Silly me.>>> Flagg Tshock....capitalism...knowledge/understanding??? You are silly AND immature when you write that. Pls don't get caught up in her adolescent socialist bs. Please reread her comments on Lenin and ask yourself if the thoughts ring true. All she is doing is putting you on----with snippets of this and snippets of that!!!! >>By lv2read lv2read... reality.... understanding?????? Why is it that anyone under the age of... you is silly & immature & just plain not worthy of an opinion ???? I may not have written any books on capitalism, but that doesn't mean I know sod all. I probably know a lot more than most teenagers - but that's not any real achievment. I really cannot believe how you can make these sweeping statements & generalizations about people. Ok lv2read - if I'm so desperately stupid when it comes to understanding capitalism... then tell me where I'm going wrong??? When did I write any comments on Lenin??? Stalin certainly....... "My adolescent socialist bs." What about your idiotic ignorant unsympathetic twisted selfish bullshit ???? Most of the time it's not me talking bullshit lv2read............... I think I'll write a comment on Lenin now - so that Flagg can read it & think "golly gee - that Tchock, I don't want to ever talk to her again - what a communist !!!" Lenin. Well - what can I say. Practically God. In fact - he should be painted above every school & hospital. His face should be on ALL the coins. Everyone should be taught to love Lenin. I have all the Lenin memorablia - posters, mugs, keyrings, badges, stickers, tshirts................ (Flagg - not too sure you're old enough to know what irony is.............. but that was it ;) ) Right. Lenin. What do I think of him ???? Well - lets see....................... He wanted to achieve communism in Russia. But he realized pretty soon after he introduced War Communism that communism just plain doesn't work in practice. It's failure was illustrated in the Kronstradt Revolt of 1921 & many other riots & uprisings. Lenin then devised the New Economic Policy - which was basically socialism, although he never gave up on the idea of returning to communism - as he had tested it out under the conditions of a poverty stricken & war weary country. The NEP was designed to make Russia's economy stronger. However the NEP did turn a little nasty.......... it was capitalism basically - except that the state owned all the major industries. "Businesses had to sink or swim - many - including state-owned industries - went bankrupt." Chris Read (historian). " The Petrograd Museum had to sell off most of its artwork in the basement to make ends meet." (Chris Read again....) Now by 1922 Lenin wasn't exactly involved in the party a lot. He had just suffered another stroke - leaving a little manipulative entity in charge called Stalin. HE was in charge of the party essentially as General Secretary. He could change the meeting agenda, suit it to his own needs & even omit anything that he disagreed with, including anything Lenin said. Only one occasion that either me or my (well imformed left-wing) history teacher could find where Stalin & Lenin argued, aside from the time Stalin insulted Krupskya (Lenin's wife). I'm deviating a little.......... Basically - Lenin was out of action for the last two years of his life. Ok commenting on Lenin now - was just informing Flagg a little of the situation in case he didn't know much about it. Lenin had a vision for the future that few people really had back then. Yeah, he wasn't perfect in his approach & maybe his ideas WERE flawed. But personally I'd rather have a flawed plan of a utopia than a fucked up crazy capitalist world where you are duped into thinking that you are going to be important, that you'll make it through life with no hassle if only you had more material possessions, where choice is mistaken for choice of goods & not choice of mind, where parents have to carry extra jobs just to get their kids to go to a "good school", where schooling is left to the individual, where health care is privatized & money making fat cats are in charge, where the reality is hidden under a bed of roses, where you are fooled into believing that there is a wealth of opportunity & if you are poor you're just not achieving, where money is the soul, where the gravity of life is that next precious buck, where creativity is stiffled for the businessmen, where blindly accepting what the government says is acceptable, where you can tell a citizen of your country utter bullshit & he will absorb those words like they were gospel : where financial poverty grows for those who are without, and those who dream of the dollar look up at the sky & see nothing but the beauty of the skies, and never the disgusting reality that with their ignorance and selfishness they helped to create. >>By Tchock Any danger you might actually answer my question at some time lv2read? >>By planet ear And I may not *know* Marek in person or indeed all that well - seeing as only so much can be known about a person over the internet. However, I think I can safely assume things about him similarly that I can assume you (lv2read) will insult any one of us here at least once by the time we reach a new page..........that you could prattle on about the greatness of George Bush's America until your blue in the face & end up not saying very much at all............& that the discovery of alien life forms living in Dorset on a summer's day in 2009 is more likely than you ever realizing that money is not the most important thing in this world. It's not an assumption really. It's more an educated, well informed judgement. Something you might not have had much experience of......... >>By Tchock Flagg America...the most PROSPEROUS country on Earth....the strongest middle class bar none....the highest standard of living.....where even the poorest have 2-3 or more cars, washers and dryers.....and stereo/CD players....everyone has color TVs (not sure that Blasck/white are even made anymore.....where almost all have calculators/cell phones/mp3s/play stations.....free primary/secondary and college educations WITHOUT A, B, or C level exa,s. where you can go whether you are qualified or not, where health care has ALWAYS been available to all, where the climate in 75% of the country is ideal, where the skies are clear/sunny---not overcast....a place where foreigners want to capture the American dream. Flagg, why don't you visit and see for yourself. Out here in idyllic Newport Beach, we don't fret over communism, nor preoccupy ourselves with dinasours like Lenin or Stalin or whomever. You can thrive here, not just exist. Communism is dead the world over. It's all gone. The depressing economies of socialist countries is well documented. I recommend that you live in the present. A socialist like Tchock will NEVER learn, will never redeem. Fidel Castro of Cuba is still promising his citizens a free press....as soon as it is possible, Note: He came to power in January of 1959. Nuff said. The Communists and Socialists will never give you a choice about anything. If you are religious and want to worship in your faith, the Communists will harrass the churches and synagogues and decide for you that religion is something that you should avoid.. If you want to hire labor, provide employment and pursue your dream, the socialists call it exploitation. The government will define what you need and label you greedy if you want more/better things/opportunities for your family. And on and on and on. Whether or not Tchock realizes this I do no know, but I know that she overlooks these very important things.....and I chalk it up to misguided youthful idealism. Not bad intentions, just blatant ignorance. There are no limits in America. Capitalism allows people to rise from poverty, and in droves. And if you don't believe that there are slums in Liverpool---you'd really love America. What I call a slums may be quasi upscale housing to you. Did Tchock mention the purges/the millions killed AND missing during the notorious Lenin/Stalin regimes.....;I may have missed it. I recommend that you google Lenin and Stalin and REREAD Tchock's banter. She is putting you on!!! >>By lv2read Be patient planet ear, remember - lv2read owns his own business. "Running a business is exhausting, time consuming and non-glamorous." He's probably still paying off his student debts..............(but remember kids - those debts are an OPPORTUNITY !!!) >>By Tchock I know all about the purges, lv2read. I know them like the back of my hand. Fortunately I never experienced them. I know the terrible deeds that happened in Russia. However - who enacted them ??? The people ?? The regime ?? Stalin ?? How about all three ?? Does that make Russia communist ?? NO - it was communist in name only. Stalin only invented (sorry stole the idea) of the Five Year Plans to take advantage of the then current volition to attempt to return to communism. Stalin ruined Russia the day he set up office as General Secretary in 1921. <There are no limits in America> Unless you cannot afford to put your kids to school, cannot afford good housing & are up to the eyes in debt. Isn't capitalism great ?? You say the state schools are failing students - but you're quite happy to let other people's children attend them while you can afford to send your kids elsewhere. That's good is it ?? What is so wrong with 'sharing the wealth'. And no that doesn't necessarily mean being robbed of all your cash so the commoners can go spend it on the next party purge. Capitalism is great for the few - and that's what most rich people just don't get. They made it - so why shouldn't any one else ?? They're failing to realize something vitally important - and quite frankly if you don't see it now - then it's almost sickening. You're so lost up there with your head in the clouds that you've almost forgotten that not everyone can turn on a light via electricity.............75% of the world's electricity is in 25% of the world's population. Lovely. YOU need to realize that not everyone can crawl out of the gutter. Capitalism's really working in African & South American countries isn't it??? Funny that - all the major companies seem to be AMERICAN. That's lovely as well. Capitalism is all very well. Hiring people is actually quite a good thing !!! lv2read - your view of anything which is not capitalism is slightly distorted. You think that because I think capitalism fails many - that I think everything should be nationalized, currency abandoned & we all live in minature gulags eating our 300ml of soup & bread once a day. <Capitalism allows people to rise from poverty, and in droves.> Give me one example. ONE. The Capitalism YOUR talking about only polarizes society. The rich get richer & the poor get poorer. You think that because you're rich, there is no reason everyone else shouldn't be as well. Well i'll give you a few reasons. 1 - fucking god awful pay in the sweat shops in Asia - CAPITALISM FOR YA !! 2 - inability to afford higher education - BUT THAT'S JUST HARD LUCK 3 - education - not everyone in this world has access to it - BUT THEY SHOULD GO TO A PRIVATE SCHOOL 4 - lack of investment: poor countries have NO investment, and when they do - it comes in the form of a very high interset LOAN - poor economy can't really progress - CAPITALISM'S GREAT lv2read - capitalism only works for a few. If it didn't - then Africa wouldn't be in the state it's in. <If you want to hire labor, provide employment and pursue your dream, the socialists call it exploitation.> I am ashamed for America that it could ever have produced something like you. You really have no concept of......... reality??? Hiring labour/providing employment is great - it creates wealth !!! Basic economics - you pay someone to do something, they spend their money & thus the money cycle can begin. Socialists call THIS exploitation: --- working for hours without break in horrendous, dangerous conditions. Children working in factories making shoes for the wealthy. people getting paid a few dollars a year for working close to 20hrs a day. children working with no education just to feed their families. All this while the company makes massive multi-billion dollar profits. Care to comment on this, lv2read??? Persuing your dreams.......................... Is it your dream - or the "American Dream" - a fable invented by some clever sod to keep the masses in line. You realize that today's society almost parallel's Stalin's.........??? >>By Tchock " BIAM implied that mg is in it for the money" L2R you are dead wrong about that, I have spoken with mg in the past and discussed, albeit briefly the advertising, I dont think for one minute that mg started Flork and Gnod for money at all, its a by-product of the popularity of the site. In the early days when first started mg was to have been congratulated for his hard work and dedication, I dare say now that the revenue generated pays for the best technology to keep the site streamlined and give him a profit, and I doubt that the profit is only marginal, look at the wide range of advertising on here and Flork. The reason why I havent thanked him is the same reason why I doubt anybody here has thanked the geezers that started google, because I beleive that it has gone beyond a favourite project, but is now a legitimate business adventure, it may be a well loved project to mg I dont know you would have to ask him that !! but ambitious in a purely monetary sense, no I dont think mg is ambitipus in that sense at all. My personal opinion is that if the plug was pulled money wise and all the advertisers left then mg would still carry on with these boards cos i dont think mg is as hung up about money as yoou are L2R >>By BushisaManiac Just read the last two pages fully and boy L2R do you ever have a propensity for talking out of your arse, is that what capitalism is to you, is that what happiness is about to you, 2-3 cars, a cd player and a colour TV, lordy are you so shallow or what....hope you manage to get a coffin big enough to take it all with you when you pop your clogs!! >>By BushisaManiac It's very unsettling that such a person can exist : whose sole aim in life is to garner money & possessions & not think beyond those two things. I guess it's like a cycle - there is a burning hole which craves to be filled - and some are lead to believe that it can be filled with material goods........... Amused to Death. I'm giving the human race 150 years if we continue like this. >>By Tchock Like the Ancient Egyptians. The rich ones anyway. L2R, I'm sure the happy-magical-dancing-singing-dreamland-America you live in is fantastic, but it doesn't TAKE cars and stereos and a big house to make me happy. All it takes is a good book and the knowledge that I could kick your ass (and I practise every day). That is, my passions for good fiction and karate are what keep me sane and make me feel good about myself these days, whereas my education and all the gadgets that my parents and I spent our hard-earned cash on have never brought me anything but misery. So why the hell should I take comfort in everything you say about America, even if I believe it (which I don't, for one moment)??? And by they way, I'm not a communist. >>By Flagg Gang of Three. Beginning with the Maniac: You are the one that first said that mg was being compensated as we 'use' the site. My point was (and in the King's English, that I appreciate it anyway. Who's twisting what BIAM?? Following with Flagg: Are you and Tchock playing 'can you top this' with absurdity? No one forced you to purchase the electronic gadgets....and,as for kicking my ass, you may do it physically but in no other way. Ending with Tshock: You don't shock antyone anymore. They are just indulging you!!! Again, we are talking understanding. You didn't really ask for one example of people making it in America? People making it here and making it big is legendary....as you know. Where were your instructors coming from?? Did the Crown subsedize your education?? Your political/financial opinions are embarrasing to your peers. Flagg I don't remember calling you a communist, but you are sure as hell a socialist---and that is not much better. >>By lv2read No, no one forced me to purchase anything, but they are all capitalism has to offer me, and I don't want them. Meanwhile people the world over suffer at the hands of capitalism - yes, sweatshops ARE real, people ARE exploited, it's all real. And physically kicking your ass would be enough for me. Kicking your ass in terms of how big my car is compared with yours, just wouldn't do it for me. >>By Flagg TCHOCK. by the way. I didn't think anything I have ever said is really that shocking ???? I always thought it was common sense ???? My instructors ??? My teachers ??? They came from Communist Russia of course............... The Crown subsidise my education ??? Well the GOVERNMENT paid for it yes.......... by which I mean everyone who pays taxes helped pay for it, yes. What a strange system of government we have. What's so embarressing about my political & financial opinions ??? Peers - am I embarressing you ????? You know, I really do not understand you lv2read. You seem completley devoid of everything spiritually to start with; then it's sympathy; then it's common sense; & finally it's intelligence. If anything it is your opinions on capitalism & what makes the 'perfect life' that is embarressing. Do you even actually comprehend what you're saying, lv2read??? You talk complete nonsense - it's almost like reading the Capitalist Daily Fat-Cat. What exactly IS this fabled American Dream that you speak ?? Would you like me to tell you exactly why lovely America is a parallel of the USSR ??? Because the more I think about it - the more I seem to think so. It's just the opposite approach to the same means, basically. It's highly ironic. lv2read, do you think I am a communist ??? Do you fear helping out your fellow man so much as to forsaken them ??? Or maybe you're just too thick to actually comprehend that there's someone else in this world other than you, & that they're a LOT, LOT better off than you in all respects save one: the one accomplishment of your life: that good old $$$$. >>By Tchock >Peers - am I embarressing you ????? I don't think your peers needs to answer that. L2R, I am particularly interested in your spirituality. You're Jewish aren't you? I think that's what I read earlier. Are you afraid of death? I hope that's not too personal a question, but I really would be interested to know. >>By Flagg What's the best book written in history? Does a 'best' book have to be something deep philosophical, should it have the best sales numbers or can it be just the Donald Duck? (I know that's not a book but you know what I mean) >>By Lynn The best book ever is *my* personal favourite: Inversions by Iain M. Banks. That's not opinion, it's fact. No point arguing with it, I'm just right. ;) Where did that question come from Lynn? >>By Flagg I thought it would be a nice change from the nitpicking ;-) There's a site called "The 100 Greatest Books in History" (alphabetical order) which is, at it says: "A list of the top 100 books nominated by 100 writers from 54 countries, compiled by the Norwegian Book Clubs" see at: http://explorers.whyte.com/100books/nwgbooks.htm There are quite some familiar titles there but I have read very little of those (blush blush). Then of course McNab is not on this list ;-) So why are these books the greatest books in history? It seems to me 'writers' are a select type of people. What if they'd ask a group of scientists? Or a group of firemen, truckdrivers, housewives? And no jokes that they may get to 25 titles tops ;-) >>By Lynn Re Good Books. I very much enjoyed 'The Aztec' by Gary Jennings. Flagg--your question is personal. Please be careful. I am not spiritual. I do, however, observe the High Holidays---but I pass on Pesach, Purim and countless others. Two of my three sons are observant, one is not. It's their choice--their lives. >>By lv2read I really like American Tabloid by James Ellroy & Vernon God Little by DBC Pierre. I don't think anyone is really afraid of *death* - just the things you'll never be able to do, the things you'll never be able to say... never seeing your loved ones again. I had a really terrible dream the other day involving something like this. My heart was failing - I was going to die at any minute. I could barely walk, I could barely stand up. I could feel my heart dying, and my life fading away as each second passed. Every thought was "is this the last time I will see my mum & dad & brother again?" I kept hanging on for my *special someone*. But he wasn't going to make it in time. It was really horrific. I wanted to peace, and yet I did not want to die alone. I can't describe how it made me feel. It still makes me feel like this. I'm not afraid of death or dying. I just don't want to say goodbye to my family & loved ones. I don't believe in heaven or hell or any other such afterlife as you might have guessed: soon as you snuff it, that's it. Nada. Obviously I know sod all about what it is REALLY like to be dying - but that dream was bad enough, even if it ended with "Oh, the doctor got it wrong actually... got the files mixed up." And suddenly I sprang into a new lease of life & my heart felt like it was doing 7/8 timing !!! I'm not really spiritual either. I just think. I wish more people would do the same. 'Philosophy is just to think. So around 10% of the population are philosophers." Who said that again ?? http://www.titane.ca/ concordia/ dfar251/igod/main.html (you know what to do with the chopped up link) I found God by the way..............he's an alcoholic - I asked. He's also confused as to what gender he is........ sometimes male, sometimes female. Right - I think I better get some sleep before lectures tomorrow. >>By Tchock So if someone with no immediate family or close friends is told they're going to die do you think they will just accept it? Actually, the book I'm reading right now deals with that exactly. Hard Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World by Haruki Murakami. It and his book Kafka on the Shore are both great examples of interesting stories about loners. I think if I was told I had x number of days/weeks/whatever to live I would be upset about the thought of not seeing my family and friends ever again yes, but I think I would also be terrified of death itself. Unlike you Tchock, I don't have any idea whatsoever about what comes after death. You seem as certain in your belief that there is nothing as many religious people are that there is something. Even if it is just non-existence... well that scares the hell out of me. It's impossible to imagine or comprehend. Anyway, I just wondered L2R, since you're a lot nearer the time than me. If it's too personal a question then I apologise. >>By Flagg Ah yes. I just thought of the Muse song, Thoughts of a Dying Atheist. heh. >>By Flagg Just looked at that link Lynn. It's a strange thing about that kind of list, they never seem to include any piece of fiction from the last 50 or so years. If that's the attitude these hundred authors have I think maybe those Norwegian Book Clubs *would* have been better off asking truck-drivers or housewives. >>By Flagg Flagg Like you (and everyone else I suppose) I don't know for sure that nothing comes after Death. I believe that it is equally foolish to say with certainty that there is no God; for that reason I identify myself as an Agnostic. However, one of my 'heroes' is Alfred North Whitehead. On his death bed, clergy was summoned. Confess your sins....life everlasting is possible....the angels are listening....and so on. His LAST words were....."May your God....he gasped slightly....the clergy and family grew near.....and he finished his thought: be damned!!! He died shortly thereafter. Very few people would appreciate this, but I've never been preoccupied with what others thought!!! And my 62nd year has been good---Death is the furthest thing from my mind. And Thank You for asking. (Pls ignore the...pls be careful comment.) >>By lv2read Well for me, I'm just a bunch of atoms made up of electrons & neutrons & protons (& quarks....etc) which performed chemical reactions in order for me to reach the state which I am in now. My brain is just a bunch of chemical reactions along with electric...stuff. But thought itself ? Now that is strange. What is thought? I am thinking right now things that seem impossible for an atom or molecule to replicate. But it's what it is - and somehow, through molecular/chemical physics, it works. Thought is no gift by God - as one Christian told me he believed. Can I prove that God doesn't exist? Can anyone prove that it does exist? For me belief in some greater meaning to life..something beyond death...god....... is just primitive. If we do have a creator at all - he'll be a Ph.D student studying us right now. Flagg: "So if someone with no immediate family or close friends is told they're going to die do you think they will just accept it?" No of course not. No one is going to accept death - whether they believe there is an afterlife or not. You say "Even if it is just non-existence... well that scares the hell out of me." Yeah, I know someone who thought that (perhaps still thinks that). I couldn't understand him. For me I can't be scared of *nothing* - if there's nothing, then what is really to fear? I think I would be more worried if there WAS an afterlife.... I mean your "soul" living forever...... up in heaven or wherever.......... My mind to be honest cannot seem to cope with stability: I always feel that things need to change and to end. >>By Tchock Listening to people gob off about death is like listening to you go on about sex with three bikini models at a time...You ain't done it, so what's the point? Can we go back to calling each other names? >>By Just Jon No, we're enjoying this. >I am thinking right now things that seem impossible for an atom or molecule to replicate. But it's what it is - and somehow, through molecular/chemical physics, it works. You contradict yourself. If it seems impossible, why do you say it isn't? To me that looks like blind faith in physics. Why should science be able to explain everything? The best scientists admit that it can't. There are plenty of things about us that science can't explain. Neurology tells us things about the brain and how it works, but it can't show us the link between our consciousness and the lump of grey matter in our skulls. So why shouldn't our consciousness carry on somehow after our brains and bodies die?? Don't misunderstand me though, I'm not saying I think it's *unlikely* that there is nothing after death, I think it's perfectly possible. Much more realistic than Heaven or Hell for sure, but there is no evidence to suggest it's the case. I think there are things that neither religion or science can explain, and our problem is that we can't accept that, so we come up with anything, no matter how ludicrous, to explain the things there's no obvious answer to. >I couldn't understand him. For me I can't be scared of *nothing* - if there's nothing, then what is really to fear? Well then we're fundamentally different there. For me, non-existence is scary because it's impossible to imagine. One second I'm a person with thoughts and experiences and all that, the next I'm nothing. If you don't find that scary then consider yourself lucky. >>By Flagg can we talk about the three bikini models?? >>By BushisaManiac Jon recently showed me a picture of one them: http://www.z-shed.co.uk/tatty/fashion_bikini3.jpg >>By Lynn Heh, so I'm into some weird stuff...; ) To Flagg--science doesn't claim to explain everything. Science is not a system of beliefs but a method. To me the beauty of science is precisely that it doesn't claim to know the unknowable, unlike religion. Just my two cents. I'm thinking PE can help me out on this one. >>By Just Jon |