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| Discussion: Jack >>>>>but that is so unlike the 18 year olds that I know and those that are children of my employees That'll be an education then. ;) >>By planet ear I hope so PE. Well BiaM I think you make too many assumptions. You read a post where I say one thing and assume that I must believe something else simply because you associate the two in your mind. Actually, I made that mistake about you when I first read your posts - I assumed because you were against the war in Iraq that you valued human life. Then you started going on about leaving drug addicts to OD and die, and bringing back hanging. The fact is I never said ANYTHING about the people living in those countries - that was JJ who did. As it happens I agree that the regimes in many of those countries are brutal and disgusting, worse than most governments run by white people, but I don't judge entire populations based on just who's in charge. Apparently neither does anyone else here if it's AMERICA we're talking about, but when it comes to the middle east and Africa... the whole lot are savages and cannibals. That IS a racist point of view. And as for back home... again, I never said black kids can't achieve - I'm witnessing them achieve right now. What I meant, and what I *should* have said - and I apologise for not being clear - is that a lot of kids don't WANT academic achievement and for them there should be something else available and there isn't. So they drift towards gangs and gun crime. And if you tell me I'm wrong about that then you can go to hell because you haven't been at school for decades whereas I'm there right now, and I'm fucking sick to death of being told my experience and opinions don't count, and the way this country is right now the emphasis is TOTALLY on academic achievement and if you don't succeed in school then you're worthless. That attitude (for which Tony Blair is largely responsible I think) is what leads to violent sub-cultures. >>By Flagg Wow, Flagg, it sounds like you're the racist here. We don't dare expect academic achievement out of blacks, do we? What should we teach them, then--toilet cleaning? Drug dealing? Blacks succeed as well as whites in school--when they are given the opportunity to attend safe schools. Here in the States, when blacks attend catholic schools they do just as well as anyone else. When they attend their inner-city public schools where they're taught that it's okay to talk like an ape and that rap "artists" have something important to say, they fail. You say you've been to school for "decades" and that others here haven't. Don't know how it works in the U.K., but primary and high school in the U.S. is age 6 or 7 to age 17 or 18. Undergrad four years. I can see one or two decades, but you seem to be implying you've been in school since Newton was in kindergarten. I thought you were fairly young, but apparently you've attended school longer than any of us and thus are well on your way to a doctorate. I salute you for that, a PHD is impressive. But back to your point..."A lot of kids don't WANT academic achievement." Boo fucking hoo, a lot of kids don't want to do their homework, either. I didn't want to not smoke pot at school--should they have built me a pot-smoking lounge to make sure I didn't turn violent? I played (real) football in high school, and I never wanted to run wind sprints. Should the coach have let me sleep during that bit, so that I didn't turn to violence out of my resentment? You have no argument whatsoever, unless you are indeed a racist and feel blacks are somehow innately incapable of learning. I for one don't think that, and that's why I say they are living as apes when they decide to govern as they have in Africa and live as many of them do here in the States. I can find way more blacks I know to agree with me than you can find, my friend. I suggest you put your money where your negro-loving mouth is and move to Techwood here in Atlanta. They'll just LOVE your theories about how it's unfair to ask a black to achieve academically. >>By Just Jon Bye everyone. Every time I post you lot just see what you want to see and not what I typed. Maybe I'll be back one day if I achieve spiritual enlightenment and can talk to people like you without losing the will to live. >>By Flagg If talking to me is enough to make you consider suicide...let me give you my phone number, you can call collect! >>By Just Jon Okay, I feel bad for saying that. Look, if the kid feels he's been misunderstood then he should explain how. Most people here have agreed with what he's said anyway, so I don't see why he's blaming everyone here. Don't play with the big kids, Flagg. There's a place for you, and it's called "My Space." >>By Just Jon L2BS who says I was on holiday ? and I know exactly where the circus is mate I have been reading your clownseye view of the world since page 1. Flagg I left school in 1982, guess what we had textbooks, blackboards and chalk, we had a school buzzer, we had to learn about logarithms, geography the history of the British Isles and europe, we had to read Shakespeare, Ted Hughes and John Betjemen (sp??), we learnt about refraction of light, the way that magnesium burns with a 'bright white light', we had teachers that were strict as fcuk, lazy and indifferent teachers and hip & trendy wanna be your friend teachers. We had CSE & 'O' level mocks and real exams we had bullying we had shite school dinners we had fights in the playground we had sports were the football inept like me were chosen at the last moment and chased the ball around like a swarm of bees...we had school crushes and school torments... so pray tell what the fuck makes you think you now more about school than me that you are experiencing totally different things than I did, just because you are at school now? You think its any different? yes ok you got more up to date computers in school now whoopsy fucking doo!! and It wasnt bLiar that introduced the 'do shite at school and you are worthless' theme that has been around since schools have, but that isnt the attitude that breeds guncrime and gangs its the wishy washy do-gooding pc standards that the labour councillors of britains towns have been bringing in since as long as I can remember. >>By BushisaManiac You're not big boys. If I ever sit down and think about my life and realise I've become like you I really will kill myself. I'll do it by jumping off a building and landing on BiaM's car. And there is no place for me. I tried MySpace. >>By Flagg Thats allright mate i'll buy another with the Insurance >>By BushisaManiac That's alright mate, I'll buy another one with the insurance. Obviously there are a couple of details missing from your schooldays. >>By Flagg Er no dont think so, please oh wise one enlighten me? >>By BushisaManiac Grammar. Do you remember any grammar? >>By Flagg Biam What is you _______ point? Why don't you go back to bed, and try getting up all over again? You don't nauseate me mate, but it's gettinh there. And, yes, Flagg you are more in touch with the new trends in teaching/education because you are there now. Biam is very opinionated and even more intolerant.....of other people's opinions. I think that we need to re-focus this discussion. We've wandered a bit. Speaking only for myself, I'd hate to see Flagg depart this 'scene.' >>By lv2read >>>> You say you've been to school for "decades", JJ >>>>And if you tell me I'm wrong about that then you can go to hell because you haven't been at school for decades whereas I'm there right now, Flagg JJ not being funny but he really didn't say what you said he did. >>By planet ear So one makes a few mistakes with grammar, when ones chubby fingers are whacking away on the keyboard, writing with pasion (or whatever you would call it) mistakes are sometimes made, live with it! move on!! L2BS quid pro quo you have been nauseating me for ages but I can deal with that, and you only want Flagg to stay so that you can tell him what a little boy he is, and how misdirected he is 'cos uncle L2R knows best. New trends in teaching have feck all to do with how crap or good school can be and how one experiences life there, its the teachers and the other kids that you interact with that helps form your opinions. >>By BushisaManiac New trends in teaching have feck all to do with how crap or good school can be and how one experiences life there Not convinced about that BIAM. I used until about 4 yrs ago teach in various schools as a peripatetic mostly. Schools are quite different now in ethos to when you or I were there... There's a growing emphasis on meeting arbitrary standards at various ages or testing throughout the school life from a very early age. It leaves teachers with less time to actually teach and build relationships with kids. Also the way a lot of assessment is done by coursework means throughout the final 2 years of secondary school there's constant pressure. It also puts kids who don't have great home environment for studying or access to a computer/books at home at a disadvantage. >>By planet ear <<<Also the way a lot of assessment is done by coursework means throughout the final 2 years of secondary school there's constant pressure. It also puts kids who don't have great home environment for studying or access to a computer/books at home at a disadvantage.>>> Structure is necessary in education....and test scores, among other things, are a tool of measurement. In America, we are just beginning to place a modicum of responsibility on the teacher (sometimes surrogate parent, disciplinarian etc.) for the performance of his/her charges. My belief is that strong parental support is also needed. I also belief that undue high stress levels serve to contradict my premise that learning should be fun. The Japanese are high achievers and their school year is like 11 months, 6 days per week and up to 8 hrs per school day. And when I read of their methods, I never run across the word 'fun.' I believe that if it isn't fun, exciting, what have you; the most important point has been missed. Yes, we want them to learn a foreign language, have mathmatics up to and including calculus, a year or two of a labratory science, and time to pursue electives of their choosing. And competitency in the English language (grammar, literature, expository writing) is mandatory. However, this course of studies must be enjoyable....or the student won't succeed. I know that I'm off topic here, and that I probably should have venonously responded to Biam (but that would be time wasted). However, education is very important to me. I enjoy learning, but did not particularly like 'school.' >>By lv2read Damnit, PE, quit being right all the time! I did misread Flagg's bit about schooling for decades, and for that I...well, I don't apologise, so I guess I just admit I was mistaken. My main problem with what he said was that "some don't WANT to achieve academically," and that we should provide what they want--one can assume teaching them to play guitar and get laid (that's what I wanted at that age, anyway). It's true that kids without computers and safe schools are at a disadvantage, but I don't think the solution is giving up and teaching them the history of rap music. Rather, the solution is giving them what I got--a firm smack on the arse if I misbehaved and a good dose of rote learning when I failed to find something interesting about, say, algebra. Flagg is a perfect (horrifying) example of kids these days--he will learn only what he wants to learn and blame anyone else for learning more than him. And guess what? He's gonna be asking one of us for a job one day...that's the part that should scare you. I deal with employees every day who literally say "I don't want to learn that," expecting me to thank them for taking my company's money and apologise for asking them to do something they aren't in the mood to do. Flagg's gonna miss out on a job because a Paki will be willing to actually work and learn whether he "wants to" or not, and I for one will be happy to hire the Paki in question. >>By Just Jon Btw Biam--I don't think L2R wants Flagg here just to insult him. The kid's been right a few times, and he's smart as hell. I think L2R sees that. I don't like any of you motherfuckers, but I still want to talk to you here. I learn from everything said here, and I hate to admit it but that little bastard Flagg is often more thoughtful and mature than the rest of us. If he says something stupid about losing the will to live because we misunderstand him, sure I'll invite him to hang himself and provide the rope. But I would miss the guy. We've disagreed so much here yet we still talk about things--that's what I'm proud of. Flagg's not really gonna turn pussy and quit posting, I hope, and L2R does really want to hear different opinions. If L2R just wanted to troll he could do that, take it from an expert troller. Let's at least give each other credit for hating each other in a productive way. >>By Just Jon I don't see anything to be proud of on this board. >>By Flagg Point taken by JJ PE and even L2R yes learning should be fun...too true, in the UK we had the choice to pick subjects in the 3rd Year, apart from the mandatory Maths and English. I bet most, like me picked subjects that they enjoyed, not necessarily ones which would give them the best jobs later on in life, why did I enjoy the subjects that I chose, either because i truley did enjoy the subject Like technical drawing in my case, or the teachers were bloody good eggs, like my geography teachers..I mean why else would anyone want to choose geography, the teachers we had made the subject interesting. Flagg you dont see anything to be proud of on this board? How about freedom of speech!! >>By BushisaManiac I guess I should feel proud then, but it just doesn't do it for me. >>By Flagg Maniac Without a doubt, an interesting, enthusiastic teacher can make a profound difference in a child's education and influence their life's choices. In my classroom experience, I had precious few teachers of that quality and devotion. The encouragement and prodding by the parents in supporting the school is also important. In the inner city ghetto schools, the teachers generally face serious disciplinary problems---often times wherein they fear their students. An environment like that will trump a teacher's enthusiasm in the worst way/ To halt this, the parents will have to partner with the school and reinforce responsible behaviors. When you have children, planned or not, they are your responsibility for life, and they will need you long after their 21st birthday. Parenting 'ain't' for everyone. >>By lv2read I guess I should feel proud then, but it just doesn't do it for me. That doesn't suprise me at all. >>By BushisaManiac Well, Flagg's commited suicide so let's move on... I was talking to a doctor with whom I do business the other day, and wondered aloud why we don't have health care for everyone here in the States. I asked if she would be willing to pay a bit more in taxes if it meant no one suffered and died for lack of money, and she said "No," her reasoning being that it would be enough of an economic burden so as to force more people into poverty and the poor health that usually accompanies lack of money--thus, it wouldn't actually help people. I think that's bullshit, but I'd like to hear from you Brits regarding the tax thing--are the taxes really so bad that you feel you're working for nothing? Would you trade your health care for say, 10% less in wage taxes? And what about capital gains? Are you taxed to death on your investment gains, do you feel you are being victimised? I know of some super-wealthy Brits who left their country to find a better tax situation, but do normal folks with less than 100k or so in investments really feel preyed upon by the British tax system? Caveat--no one anywhere is gonna be happy with what their taxes are spent on. I'm asking about the level of taxation, not the final destination of your money except insofar as it pays for health care. Thank you. >>By Just Jon Well we get taxed to the hilt, income tax on your wages plus national insurance (totals about 23% of your gross wage if you earn below £50K a year up past 40% above that) then there is VAT on just about everything you buy at a standard 17.5% except petrol alcohol and ciggies christ knows what the taxes are on them but a damn sight higher than 17.5%, a litre of petrol costs about 98p, a pint of beer about £2.50 ish (dont drink very much so that may be wrong) a packet of 20 ciggies costs about £5. then theres council tax, rates dependent on where you live and what your home is like, big house pay more, I am across here working and living in rented accomodation a tiny one bedroom appartment so small theres no room for doors to any of the rooms except the throne room, and I pay £660 per annum as well as rent at £475 per month(taxed as well) electricity and water rates too (taxed as well obviously) Then theres car tax about £150 per annum but that is dependent on engine size (may be wrong here I drive a car registered abroad where I actually live so i dont have UK car tax) then if you want to fly anywhere on holiday theres airport tax for each flight round about £15 but the government will soon put that up which is a pisser for me as I fly home every third weekend. I cant remember offhand what inheritence tax is about £230K however the price of most homes is rapidly approaching that now so more and more people are being stung. JJ not many people have savings/investments approaching anywhere like £100K Im the wrong person to ask about the national health service though as its so poorly managed funded etc etc that i have private health care (mainly though cos i usually live and work overseas) Its true EVERYBODY has access to free health care if you live in this country but be prepared to wait for all but the emergency life saving stuff PS the above figures may be a little out as I cant actually be asked to google them, but they are round about there. >>By BushisaManiac Tchockie's better at research than I, havent seen her around for a while hope she's well or have we just pissed her off beyond comprehension, just like Flagg? >>By BushisaManiac Biam Would you clarify something for me..... If your gross wages for a seven day period were $2000, what would be the net amount of your paycheck?....after ALL taxes. and... If you purchased some toys in a store for $100.00 -- with tax you would pay $117.50; is that correct? .....perhaps Tchock has been grounded. (an American expression meanind that parents have forbidden son or daughter from leaving the home). >>By lv2read Well L2R the only taxes taken from you at wage source are PAYE pay as you earn (income tax) and National insurance contributions. For a weekly wage of $2000 you would get in your hand $1376.62 Then you pay council tax which depends as i said where you live. as for VAT (value added tax) the tax is already calulated on the shelf price that you see, if something has a tag of $100 dollars thats what you pay at the checkout, however the item would be $85.11 before tax. >>By BushisaManiac Biam Don't you think that 17.5% is exorbitant? Is your VAT synonomous with what we call a Sales Tax (in California it is 8%....I believe one of the highest in the country)? >>By lv2read |