Andy Mcnab
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Alice, so you don't shake your head too much, wondering if we're all a bunch of nutters -- please meet me at email4gnod@aol.com and I'll explain offboard.
I know you're new here, Alice, but I'm quite certain that Buddy, Lynn, Paul, Swedish reader, MG, and DTO will all vouch that it is very safe to meet me offboard. email4gnod is an account I set up specifically so that folks here could meet, and if agreed to, exchange personal email addresses privately.
Hope to meet you there soon....
>>By am-i-binned (Tuesday, 15 Apr 2003 20:14)
This is as much about SAS personnel as other Special Forces, and of course, for those who don't know, my first husband was Para/SAS, so I have a special affinity with the Parachute Regiment...
MORE FALKLANDS VETERANS HAVE COMMITTED
SUICIDE THAN WERE KILLED IN ACTION
A shocking little known toll of the Falklands War: More veterans have taken their own lives since the South Atlantic conflict ended than the number of Servicemen killed in action.
The alarming statistic emerged in the wake of the horrifying suicide of Charles 'Nish' Bruce, an SAS hero of the Falklands and one of the world's top freefall experts, who leapt to his death from a light aircraft last week.
And with allegations that the Ministry of Defence has tried to ignore the issue of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) which leaves many sufferers emotionally scarred and unable to work, The Mail on Sunday can reveal that a High Court case brought by 260 former Servicemen against the MoD will begin in March.
They are claiming their condition was not diagnosed or treated while they were still serving and that they were never warned about the effects on their enlistment or discharge from the Forces. Nor, they say, were they ever given any presentations or debriefings to prepare them for the possible effects.
The case will be heard against a background of growing disquiet about the suicide rate among former combat soldiers brought sharply into focus by the death of 46 year old Nish Bruce. SAMA - the South Atlantic Medal Association, which represents and helps Falklands veterans - believe some 264 veterans have now taken their own lives. This contrasts with the 255 who died on active service.
Les Standish, SAMA's North-West representative who was decorated with the Military Medal for his gallantry during the Battle of Goose Green, was a friend of Bruce. He tried to help him when he first became ill with PTSD some six years ago.
The former 2 Para Lance Corporal said: "I know that around 37 former Paras who served in the Falklands have killed themselves. There will be others. I'm afraid that the crop of documentaries on television in the run-up to the 20th anniversary will lead to a rash of suicides."
"There seems to be a general pattern to what happens. Recurring nightmares and flashbacks followed by a recourse to heavy drinking or drugs then crime. A lot of the people I know ended up in prison often for violence and some of them killed themselves in their cells. Six years ago I went with another SAS hero called John G who was Bruce's best friend and we found him down and out on the streets. He'd turned into a violent drunk."
Mr Standish went on: "Looking back there may have only been one tragic result for Nish. I know that he tried to kill himself by burning himself to death and he even tried to drown himself in his bath. Recently the lads tell me he was having electric shock therapy."
Dr Dafydd Jones, medical director of the Ty Gwyn Clinic for ex-servicemen in Llandudno, North Wales, treated Bruce. He said: "The terrible suicide rate is a scandal. I hope the High Court action will make the MoD take this problem seriously."
A MoD spokesman said: "We don't want to comment on the impending legal action but we do acknowledge that some members of the Armed Forces may be subjected to trauma and suffer as a result. We have systems in place to cope with this."
How many of these Falkland veterans were prescribed psychiatric drugs to 'help them cope'? How many like Charles Bruce were given electro-shock therapy to their brain by psychiatrists in order to 'cure them of their depression', when all they needed was love, understanding and people who cared about them? Has their inability to reintegrate into society truly been as a result of their war trauma, or could it not have been caused by the appalling disregard the UK government has shown these priceless souls who did what they were told to do spectacularly well? How many of them found an indifferent, uncaring society turning its back on them when they returned, like the American GI's, pilots and naval personnel who came back from Vietnam?
Can we as a society truly feel compassion any more, as we used to after two World Wars, or do we need more legislation to fill the yawning hole where our souls used to be?
>>By buddy (Wednesday, 16 Apr 2003 09:14)
W, Apr 16 (10:00am) US
Very intense, disturbing post, Buddy, and especially poignant since I just started to read "Freefall" by Tom Read (aka Charles Bruce)....just yesterday, in fact, due to you...
For anyone here not familiar with Charles Bruce, I'd like to provide a little clarification that the date of his tragic death was Tuesday, January 8, 2002. For additional information, you can ref.:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2055854.stm and related links on that page.
>>By am-i-binned (Wednesday, 16 Apr 2003 16:16)
RE: Buddys above comment,
Hardly being an expert on these matters, I have little doubt we take for granted the level of brutality most of the forward combat soilders witness. I as a male have no idea if I could bear the things done in combat. Leading to some of the same dreadfulness that you describe above. I wonder how AM dealt with these issues . Some vets seem to deal quite well. The few WWII vets I know have done very well in life.
Great post Buddy. I wish I had more time for the research on PSD.
USA 15:44
>>By DTO- (Wednesday, 16 Apr 2003 22:44)
Holland, April 15th
Re: FB: I have been called "fenian bastard" more times than I can count ..simply for living in a certain area.
You are living in a very difficult area (understatement I know) so it must be hard for you to handle all ‘truths’ you hear and put them in the right perspective. I am a bit new to the subject, that is, you know it’s happening ‘way over there’ but all backgrounds are a new territory (which I’m not fully familiar with).
About SAS given the benefit of the doubt I think there’s hardly another way. Like the police, they are (supposed) to be on the side of the law. But like AM said (and I mentioned that before) “It’s a misconception that they’re all upright people in the army”,which will count for police too I’m sure, but specially SAS are operating in such a grey area, with hardly anyone knowing exactly what they do, lots of things could go wrong. And it doesn’t even have to be intentionally.
Debriefing afterwards is ‘insiders only’ so whatever the outcome – I doubt we’ll here the full story ever. My believe is that -at least the majority- are good people who are doing a very difficult job and try to do it to their best ability. But they are still human.
Re: I'd like to address your specific issue with Andy's account as to the death of ……
Great post Am-I-Binned
Re: Alice: having done so many mistakes
Don’t worry Alice, I make heaps, but people here are far too nice to correct you - hahaha.
But I do think you should talk to Am-I-Binned offboard about the gentlemen thing… VBG!
Ok Buddy, wipe the tears from your eyes now!! ;-)
Nice piece about the veterans. Well, not ‘nice’ content of course. Very sad. Andy told in an interview he worked with some group, right..? standing up for people’s rights when they suffer from Gulf War Syndrome and PTSD too I believe..
Well something is definitely very wrong with army counselling, but also many men will get in to trouble after leaving the army right? So they should have a program for soldiers after leaving too. Does something like that exist? But then, if they left it would be voluntarily right? Doubt if they are easily convinced they should enter such a program. How could this be solved then, have some idea??
Hey DTO.. nice to hear from you on this side – site, sorry, again. How do you like B20 ?
Take care, Lynn
>>By Lynn (Wednesday, 16 Apr 2003 23:32)
Deleted some nonsense.
>>By mg (Thursday, 17 Apr 2003 20:35)
Hi guys & gals,
Did I miss an *introductory* post from JG & MX, if not, guess you guys/girls must be newbies on the block!?
Lynn: military medics, inclusive psychiatrists/psychologists/therapists etc., are employed by the MoD, so all medical assessments are subject to coloured results/profiles...Your face fits or it doesn't in times of emotional crisis, unless you really are off your trolley...
One man shoots himself in the foot in battle and he's a hero!
Another shoots himself in the foot just before a battle and he's classed a coward!
It doesn't matter that both may have tripped with a loaded weapon - finger on the trigger - as in accident!!
Whatever, each gets to go home - one under escort of redcaps and a quick step to the cooler!
Here's a funny, and absolutely true story.
A woman in psychiatric unit walks around saying: "I'm mad, I'm mad, I'm mad - over and over.
She's sent for EST and when she gets back and regains consciousness, she says: 'I'm still mad. I'm still mad"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What did the psychatrist do? Scratched his head, shrugged his shoulders, and said: "Oh well, worth a try, but we don't know and never will what effect EST really has on people"
Yet, Spike Milligan swore by it...
But then, some men like electrodes clipped to their genitals, so what does that say about buzz and thrill factor???
I've heard many Parachutists claim Freefall is better than sex in most cases of the latter!!
>>By buddy (Thursday, 17 Apr 2003 20:42)
Lynn: forgot to mention theory of why WWII vets have faired better than the modern day soldier in the face of PTSD
In those days servicemen used to write long letters home...
Letter writing is the best catharsis there is, so take it from me, you can tell the difference between a writer who writes merely for profit as opposed to one who writes from the heart...
>>By buddy (Thursday, 17 Apr 2003 20:49)
Th, Apr 17 (6:10pm) US
Buddy,
Not to trivialize, but only one word comes to mind and blocking out all others -- OUCH!
>>By am-i-binned (Friday, 18 Apr 2003 00:13)
Germany, 18.04.2003 - 01:00am
Hi there! If you've missed it:
1/ On mirror.co.uk = search "the Mirror" for "Andy McNab" ; you'll find 3 interviews (and a quote) of AM about gulf war 2 - April 2003
2/ On the same site = search "pictures" for "Andy McNab" ; there is an ooooooold gallery of 14 pictures; greyman and dark car, crisis four, ...
3/ www.traser-uk.com/new/andy.htm = Traser watches' site, I know! But a good site for new readers who want to know more about AM; a complete biography, bibliography, a short interview and a gallery.
>>By Alice (Friday, 18 Apr 2003 00:59)
Th, Apr 17 (7:15pm) US
Nice homework, Alice...
In all the times I've looked at The Mirror, I never knew there was a pictures option. The CF pictures are just plain weird, tho! Does anyone (maybe you, Buddy, as our UK rep) know the purpose of the CF photos? Why they were done? Promoting movie? Book? Certainly wouldn't get me interested in anything! Odd, too, the others in that he's trusting the newspaper to obsure his face -- I'd have thought that risky business....
>>By am-i-binned (Friday, 18 Apr 2003 01:26)
Am-I-Binned: no probs on pointing out I digressed from AM to SAS related stuff!!!
I guess it boils down to the wider aspect/issue of why AM appears to be sane (untouched) by his experiences, when I/WE know he isn't... No one, can kill another with intent and not think about it unless they have psychopathic tendencies...
There are a lot of ex/security force members quaking in their shoes right now over the results of a civilian police enquiry into collusion between members of NIs RUC/RUD and special branch section. It doesn't look good for men who carried out orders now classed as political murder (seek & destroy) in the Provence...
The fact that the IRA declared war on the security forces and British civilians is seemingly neither here nor there. War is dirty, and how awful it would it be if members of the Dutch/Norwegian/French resistance' in WWII (those still alive) and British undercover operatives (SOE) were brought to account for past crimes against enemy forces and those who collaberated with the enemy?
What of other ops, inclusive those AM would have been involved with in NI?
>>By buddy (Friday, 18 Apr 2003 09:43)
I forgot to say there will be far-reaching consequences of Sir John Stevens report on collusion of security forces in NI.
Some SAS and 14th intelligence operators (bestselling authors) could end up behind bars...
Trivial?
>>By buddy (Friday, 18 Apr 2003 10:14)
F Apr 18 (7:15am) US
Buddy, surely you know me well enough by now to know that I never consider anything SAS related to be a digression -- especially from you! Brevity must not become me so well after all. My "response" was to the "pain" -- all forms and variations, mental, physical, emotional -- and you know in your heart I would never trivialize anything like that -- whether AM/SAS or in general! Please forgive the mislead; it was the furthest thing from my intentions....
And, yes, I have actually been following the news reports (found one PBS - public broadcasting system which airs BBC news) regarding the Stevens report! I know what you're talking about -- maybe not completely, but at least I am aware this time, in real time. And, yes, I immediately began to consider all the various aspects and implications! I think it most serious indeed.
>>By am-i-binned (Friday, 18 Apr 2003 13:24)
Thinking about it twice, I came to the conclusion to move all those posts by jg,mx etc and all related posts to the archive. If we let kids play games here, this board will loose its informational character and be just another boring place with unbelievable masses of nonsense. I am *very* willing to discuss this decision (offboard or in the archive). The posts by jg etc can still be discussed in the archive as well. (www.gnooks.com/discussion/message+archive.html)
>>By mg (Friday, 18 Apr 2003 16:19)
MG: graffiti only ever has merit if it is beautiful, funny, or bears semblence of intellectual substance...
Posting of coded messages or those seeking secretive exchange do not use messageboards, they use advertising medium ie; dating sites/contact e-mails, which are about as far removed as possible from the circle of intrigue in which they are truly involved!!!!!!!! It is less easy for *watchers* to pick up on covert interaction through the medium of adult contact sites...
>>By buddy (Friday, 18 Apr 2003 16:39)
Damn afterthoughts!!!
Meant to say (reminder) for those who've chatted with me offboard and for those who professed to have followed our threads with interest...
OK guys, I know one heck of lot about intelligence/sources and coding packages...
When it comes to *teddy-bear picnics* you'll know where I'm coming from, right?
You wanna talk, I'll share some rum...devonwren@yahoo.com
>>By buddy (Friday, 18 Apr 2003 16:55)
Buddy- are you at JHQ?
>>By E5 (Friday, 18 Apr 2003 20:10)
April 18/04/03 22.30 GMT UK
E5/JG/MX:
Offboard or not at all, this is not a *kiddywinks* forum. Again: devonwren@yahoo.com....
For correspondence aboard use a nic, and introduce yourself, ie: country, Andy McNab books read to date, why you came to this site, whether you're interested in corresponding with establishd posters. As you can see, anything posted that appears to resemble rubbish gets shot into the garbage bin...
Mature adults reign around here, the only person who uses initials happens to be MG = site owner.
reJHQ? - read ISG! (goldilocks)
---------------------
Am-I-Binned: I enjoy trivial pursuits, you never know where you might go or who you might meet, what might transpire!!
>>By buddy (Friday, 18 Apr 2003 23:36)
Let's stick with "Echo 5" for the time being.
GMT 0136
Books read:
Bravo Two Zero
Remote Control
Crisis Four
Firewall
Will speak for myself as to the recent visits. It was passed on that there was interesting content on the board regarding McNab- of whom I have a vested interest in. The interesting content being sought is more related to his following then the history of his career or the politics surrounding the decisions that led up to the various actions he was involved in.
Will continue to monitor. As for correspondance- not yet.
Your efforts in maintaining the integrity of the board are applaudable.
>>By Echo 5 (formerly E5) (Saturday, 19 Apr 2003 03:36)
At last: Hello Echo 5,
There's quite a 'few' people who have 'vested' interest in Andy McNab, not least, himself, right?
Re: more interested in AM's following:
I'd say most here became addicted to Nick Stone the character because he embodied/s the man behind the character, NS is therefore flesh and blood to them, far more real than any character conjured from the mind of a writer...
First person narrative has its plus points for many authors, more so when the hero/ine becomes a serialised character, but AM's advantage over other writers - in particular SAS writers who've ventured into fiction - is the fact that NS is a window to the soul of AM...scary, huh?
If you've read through the postings you should have a fair idea where posters are coming from in terms of AM/NS...Believe me, they're like ravens, watching...
>>By buddy (Saturday, 19 Apr 2003 10:54)
Holland, April 19th.
Hi everyone..
My humble opinion when asked (if not – too bad, gonna give it anyway) that this is a sort of AM/NS fansite. Speaking for myself, I like the books, they are (seem) very real to me, they are exiting, I like the character(s). As for Andy himself, like he said himself Nick Stone is his mirror that is, good parts are Andy, bad parts other people he knows haha. Now, I like talking about what’s Andy and what’s not, about the storylines about any forthcoming activities (movie etc).
But I’m not enough insider to be able to talk about “the politics surrounding the decisions that led up to the various actions he was involved in” And I don’t mind reading about it as long as it’s in understandable language without trying to provoke people and certainly not in PGP messages (which contained a couple of typos by the way, 3rd line from above the last z should have been an s, right in the middle 89 should have been 98, but who cares anyway) !!
This is not (to me anyway) supposed to be some military exchange program. So please everyone, in English or else loose non-military speaking foreigners.
So Echo Echo Echo Echo Echo, why haven’t you read Immediate Action yet?
(and I’m not being cynical, just kidding)
take care,
Lynn
>>By Lynn (Saturday, 19 Apr 2003 13:14)
Sa Apr 19 (10:35am) US
A very public and very heartfelt thank you to DTO for his most generous gifts! Totally unnecessary, totally unexpected, but totally, totally appreciated! THANK YOU! See you in offboard world, DTO!
>>By am-i-binned (Saturday, 19 Apr 2003 16:47)
Did the rest of us miss a post here, somewhere?
Am-I-Binned: Why public thank you to DTO in respect of private gifts?
Marek: not sure what I've done to upset you, please clarify on: devonwren@yahoo.com
Will cease posting for time being...
>>By buddy (Saturday, 19 Apr 2003 17:38)
1542 GMT
Lynn: I will read Immediate Action at some point, probably at the same time I read "Married to the SAS". Again, the interest is in the following. As for the PGP info- I almost want to believe you, if you want to take it off-board, that's fine- but there's no guaruntee that the email address assosciated with the public key that the cyphertext was encrypted to will be really in tune with the subject matter of this board.
BUddy: No doubt that Andy McNab fiction is first rate- 50 times better then any thing Mercinko has ever put together- but that's a different subject matter- and merely opinion.
>>By Echo 5 (Saturday, 19 Apr 2003 17:42)
Buddy: I'm not upset at all. Must be a misunderstanding. I will send you a mail.
>>By mg (Saturday, 19 Apr 2003 19:04)
MG: I rather got the impression from offboard communique that I had caused problems (confusion/disturbed thoughts) for you...If not, I'll come out of the corner now, and discard punishment hat! ;-)
Lynn: you're right about this site being dedicated to AM/NS, and it's frustrating for those who feel they know less than others on the subject matter. Then there are those who feel that anything that is not in one of AM's books cannot really be worthy of discussion or ponderance. My problem being, I know more about things which are SAS related, not in his books, and which, perhaps, covers more thought provoking aspects of living with SAS and special ops menfolk...
Echo 5: Were you referring to the Navy Seal's book: Rogue Warrior by Richard Marcinko, (typo error) or did you mean the Hungarian novelist?
>>By buddy (Saturday, 19 Apr 2003 19:29)
Buddy, I appreciate you sharing your knowledge, I just want
to indicate that I'm here for AM/NS and I can 'go with you' on matters related, but I'm afraid that doesn't count for things that go beyond that. I said before, it's not my board and I'm not at liberty to tell people not to talk about other things, and I surely take the things I read as 'educational' stuff, I just think it's a pity if we wander off too far.. for too long. But please don't think I'm not interested in what you have to say.....as long as we come back to base (read AM/NS) eventually..
Lynn
>>By Lynn (Saturday, 19 Apr 2003 20:48)
Buddy: Yes, Marcinko, the former Seal.
>>By Echo 5 (Sunday, 20 Apr 2003 00:12)
Lynn:
Bear in mind the Official Secrets Act when reading books by ex military personnel, and bear in mind it is a two-way thing for ex SAS personnel = their own personal safety can be breached by access to classified information. Hence, Sir John Stevens enquiry into underhanded dealings in NI will seriously affect men, (counter intelligence officers) who thought themselves safe from exposure...We've talked about suicide before, and there will be men out there thinking about putting a gun to their heads right now...
AM will be worried about it too, because when a policeman starts rolling stones over to see what lies beneath he may trigger an avalanche of information = a secret is only a secret if the other person is dead...
>>By buddy (Sunday, 20 Apr 2003 12:36)
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