Andy Mcnab
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The whole notion or concept of each bullet hitting its mark, it's optimistic at best.
The only place where that rings true, is within the sniper community.
Elsewhere, you take into account that a lot of rounds will not hit its mark.
Also -- another very important aspect: it is not always that you fire to actually hit! I know this sounds strange, but you do have that element called "suppressing fire". It just means to get a shitload of projectiles in the air to keep the enemy's head down.
This is also very relevant in a contact drill situation (such as the ones we read about in the SAS books). Of course, each man in the patrol will aim at something before discharging a round, but the most important thing is to have projectiles in the air at all times - a constant hail storm ripping through the air.
And believe me.... regardless of having 5.56's or 7.62's coming your way, you quickly get persuaded to get that head down ASAP!
>>By ortlieb (Friday, 5 Nov 2004 01:07)
Just Jon
It must be for the special occasions when they're up against perps with body armor.
I'm not a big fan of full auto for police applications.
>>By BadTime (Friday, 5 Nov 2004 15:55)
why don't they upgrade to m10s and beating body armour can be accomplished by a change of ammo, not so much a bigger round.
>>By fony (Friday, 5 Nov 2004 15:58)
I just finished reading Soldier Five.
Interesting stuff.......
It seems strange to me that - for instance - when Peter Ratcliffe talks about how he and the CO virtually pleaded the patrol to utilize a vehicle, he fails to mention that there was only a single dinkie left.
The fact that Ratcliffe left the Regiment in 1996 - the very same year the confidentiality contract was introduced to all serving members - seems like a strange "coinsidence" to me. Seing as EOTS was the "establishments" version of a "setting the record straight" book, I think it's more than plausible that the MoD struck a deal with Ratcliffe: he leaves the Regiment voluntarily (avoiding the gag-order in the process) and gets to write the MoD-sanctioned book. EOTS would both undermine Coburn's "Soldier Five" and provide the MoD a loophole to speak its mind, seing as they had painted themselves into a corner with the relentless "no comment" policy over the years.
But I guess it all boils down to the question: which of the countless authors to believe?
As one glaring example of totally opposite perceptions on what "really" happened, I will quote from EOTS - this time Ratcliffe commenting on Bravo Two Zero's (the patrol) escape & evasion plan:
"What was much more serious, to my mind, was Bravo Two Zero's disregard of McNab's own written orders, filed with Operations before the patrol's departure for Iraq.
(...) McNab wrote very clearly that in the event of a serious compromise, and of his patrol having to resort to an escape attempt, they would head south towards Saudi Arabia".
Now... as it turns out (according to Coburn) the fact of the matter was that the OC of B Squadron knew about the patrol's plan of escaping thowards Syria, but the message never reached the head-shed further up the chain.
As Soldier Five both comments EOTS directly, and the simple fact that the MoD has mercilessly battled against Coburn to prevent the book's release, I'm leaning towards that Coburn is in fact the true source of authenticity.
I recently watched the movie "Ronin" again. Robert DeNiro says in one scene: "If this is gonna be amateur night, I wanna get paid - $ 100.000 before the operation, $ 100.000 after..."
The SAS deployment to the Gulf in 1991 was well and truly "amateur night" - a monumental break-down of the system IMHO. "I would've sacrificed a squadron for one Scud" were one of the uncompromising statements from the CO.
I can't imagine what it would feel like to be one of the men who's on the ground and walking the walk, and have a statement like that thrown at them.
"Yes, I am a member of one of the world's most elite regiments, but I am in fact expendable cannon fodder".
Makes you wanna sign up for Selection, doesn't it ??
>>By ortlieb (Sunday, 7 Nov 2004 14:40)
I read Peter Ratcliffe's book awhile ago and he criticises both Mcnab and Ryan for naming the dead men, when he also names them, seems he's a bit hypocritical. on another note he has bad things to say about both Cameron Spence and Peter 'Yorkie' Crossland but i have read more accounts backing them up saying Peter Ratcliffe was a liability then saying he wasnt
>>By Psicosis (Sunday, 7 Nov 2004 15:13)
Having read every single book written on B2O, i think coburns book which i read months ago when it first came out is probably the most accurate... But thats just a readers point of view. And everyone esle will have a different opinion to someone else, but lets not forget one thing these are brave men, all of them so if you live in the Uk go and get your poppy and wear it with pride, for those who gave their tomorrows, so we can have our todays...
>>By brianauthor (Monday, 8 Nov 2004 02:46)
With renewed respect for blackout bars... ||o)
"... Photos with named captions of former SAS soldiers who took part in the 1980 Iranian Embassy siege and the killing of an IRA bomb squad in Gibraltar in 1988 are featured in the copies of Mars and Minerva - a journal produced for the eyes of SAS troops only.
The identities of soldiers currently serving with the regiment are also revealed. ...
... in the wrong hands the information could be used to identify the special forces soldiers who dramatically stormed the Iranian Embassy in London in 1980. Sale of the journals could also have led to the identities of the SAS team who killed three IRA bombers in Gibraltar in 1988. And it could have unmasked elite units who operated in the Falklands, the Gulf and other troublespots.
A senior security source said last night: 'In the wrong hands this is extremely valuable information. It wouldn't take much to track down these men. Any one of them would be a prime target for al-Qaeda fanatics or an IRA death squad. The propaganda value would be immense.' ... "
http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/
news/tm_objectid=14843019&method=
full&siteid=106694&headline=secrets-
of-s-a-s--for-sale-on-ebay-name_page.html
>>By am-i-binned (Monday, 8 Nov 2004 08:00)
It's more often for sale, though the 'value' will depend on how old the issue for sale is.
Page 77:
Oooooooh, nearly forgot. There's a great item on Ebay. Mars and Minerva - Journal of the SAS. Very Rare item: named photos, service history, obituaries. Its up to 30 quid at the moment, 3 hours left.
>>By Scouse (Monday, 22 Sep 2003 19:44)
At that time it was : "The Journal of the SAS Volume 3 No 6 – June 1973 Very rarely seen, Special Air Service regimental journal 'Mars & Minerva'. It contains a wealth of information with named photographs, service histories of personnel, obituaries and details of SAS (Britain’s elite unit), operations at home and abroad."
>>By Lynn (Monday, 8 Nov 2004 10:19)
Also found this:
"In April 2005 we will be dedicating a tree in honour of Vince Phillips who sadly lost his life in the 1st. Iraq war."
(Scarf Jones - Treasurer
Allied Special Forces Association)
>>By Lynn (Monday, 8 Nov 2004 11:03)
There was an article in yesterday's Sunday Express Magazine about AM and John Nichol's new books (Tornado Down author) says they met in Abu Ghraib and have been good friends since. Nice picture of the back of AM's head included! It says that McNab is the most successful military author in history.
Lynn, can you find the URL for those interested please?
>>By camban (Monday, 8 Nov 2004 16:15)
I'm not in Lynn's league when it comes to googling, but I checked the Express site, and they seem to have only a few articles online each day, rather than the entire contents. I checked google's cache and found Sun. 7 Nov. edition, but again, just five or six articles and no McNab.
It appears they don't post entire contents online--but note, I said appears...Still worth having Lynn give it a go.
>>By Just Jon (Tuesday, 9 Nov 2004 04:43)
Oh, on an entirely unrelated note...I would never advocate breaking the law unless there were some personal gain in it for me, so I say the following in an entirely theoretical sense...
Sadly, there are indeed people selling the "Mars and Minerva" journal online...And I think it would be cosmically justified (for those of us who know how) to make said sellers' lives a living hell by "carding" them to death. By carding I mean...Yer basic credit card fun. If you consider the fact that one who did that wouldn't actually be wanting the merchandise...Pretty easy to not get caught, only victim is the seller. I wouldn't do that, though. Wouldn't even know where to begin. Just a thought.
Basically, it sickens me that these SAS guys' privacy has been invaded to the point that puke civvies like me are apparently buying their own private 'zine, and that, even worse, there are people out there who gained access to it and are now selling it.
Whether it's Andy's name, or some dude's picture, or the journal...Those who have served have earned their privacy, I'm glad that at least those of us here respect it.
>>By Just Jon (Tuesday, 9 Nov 2004 05:54)
There's people for anything imaginable JJ. Speaking of Sunday Express.. I had the same result - only a few online stories, none of them McNab/Nichols. I did run into Nichols site which is worth to take a look!!
Cam, is there any other way you can get us the article (scan???)
www.johnnichol.com
>>By Lynn (Tuesday, 9 Nov 2004 09:10)
Solution at hand Lynn, watch this space!
>>By camban (Tuesday, 9 Nov 2004 11:06)
Thank you Cam :-)
>>By Lynn (Tuesday, 9 Nov 2004 12:36)
re: ortlieb and ronin & eots
question 1)
if anyone knows, what color _IS_ the boathouse at hereford? is there even one?
and 2)
AM says: "An hour later, I was standing on Platform 4" (IA, pp.92).
Now, we all know this, but then, rereading EOTS, i found this excerpt:
"They were immediately 'RTU-ed'... ...from the now famous Platform 2 at Hereford Station" (EOTS, pp.55)
any thoughts on these ideas? i know i've thrown in a couple of hairs to split, but it would be nice to get some answers...
>>By trident (Tuesday, 9 Nov 2004 19:14)
tridy:
Long time, no see mate!
I doubt there even is a boathouse in Hereford. Hereford's well on the inland, isn't it?
I guess you can have a boathouse by a lake, but... *shrug*.
About platform 2 vs 4: I think that's a printing / editing error on M&M's part.
>>By ortlieb (Tuesday, 9 Nov 2004 20:36)
Any idea how many trainstations there are in Hereford ?? My guess is one.. with between 2 and 4 platforms atleast ..
>>By Ninjawoman (Tuesday, 9 Nov 2004 22:58)
There is no boat house in Hereford, it was a lame 'trick question' to expose an SAS imposter who drew attention by being unable to shoot straight (I think).
Platform 4 is mentioned in various other books but that is probably the south bound track. As Ratcliffe was a northerner, maybe platform 2 is the north bound track.
Does that reduce the split hairs to nano-particles?
>>By camban (Wednesday, 10 Nov 2004 12:18)
Ultimate Force, series 3 will be shown on ITV1, UK, in mid-January I am told. Also in January, the DVD set of all 3 series will be available.
>>By camban (Wednesday, 10 Nov 2004 12:45)
History?
www.hereford.uk.com/history/Pics2/Image13.gif
Today?
www.dudleymall.co.uk/loclrail/hereford2s.jpg
Platforms?
www.dudleymall.co.uk/loclrail/hereford2.gif
>>By J.D. (Wednesday, 10 Nov 2004 12:51)
Nice J.D. :-)
Good to see you back
>>By Lynn (Wednesday, 10 Nov 2004 23:51)
"The army is to increase the size of the elite SAS regiment to fight the global "war on terror", senior defence officials said yesterday."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/
story/0,,1346520,00.html
>>By Lynn (Thursday, 11 Nov 2004 09:32)
Ex Social Serviceman
-------------------------------
The Major, gleaming medals pinned on blazer,
Raw back and sides with a cutthroat razor,
What reward did his valour earn?
Another visit from Age Concern.
For King and country, the right thing to do,
His battle now rages in the bus queue,
What did he get for a nation's defence?
A leaflet on incontinence.
The star of the Burma boys, one man per sleeper,
Stiff upper lip, the dreadful secrets keeper,
What did he get on a veteran's pension?
To pay for the Jubilee line extension.
A member of the disarmed forces,
All the Kings men, without the horses,
Bullied beef and powdered eggs,
He'd chase the little blighters,
But he's got no legs.
The poppies, the legion, the just and true cause,
The shrivelled up heroes of two world wars.
>>By Poppy (Thursday, 11 Nov 2004 11:50)
It is Veteran's Day here in the U.S.
A heartfelt thank-you to all men and women who gave service to their country.
>>By Majorette (Thursday, 11 Nov 2004 13:54)
(
...)
Mike Coulton, founder of the Allied Special Forces Association - which offers support for ex-service people - says more than 500 ex-special forces members are serving in Iraq, higher than the estimated 250-300 currently serving in the SAS.
He says the former soldiers can earn more than their annual SAS salaries in just six months by joining private security firms - and he claims many are now using the special forces training as a stepping stone to a new career.
(...)
Mr Coulton, who served as an SAS corporal for five years from 1973, said: "It is becoming increasingly popular and people are leaving the SAS earlier - in the old days they stayed for 18 years or longer.
"Nowadays they do about five years. It is a career stepping stone into a job with more money."
(Mr Claridge, managing director of Janusian Security Risk Management:)
He said he had been getting more applications than ever before.
"I think it is a concern for the Ministry of Defence, it is a major problem,"
(..)
A spokeswoman for the Ministry of Defence, said: "We don't normally comment on special forces but manning levels in the armed forces are buoyant. We are not worried."
Full article on:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news
/england/3965901.stm
>>By Lynn (Thursday, 11 Nov 2004 14:40)
A spokeswoman for the Ministry of Defence, said: "We don't normally comment on special forces but manning levels in the armed forces are buoyant. We are not worried."
thats cos they are recruiting thousands of guys from ghana and Fiji...
>>By ToeKnee (Thursday, 11 Nov 2004 18:15)
hey guys... ( & Gals)
I have just had to reinstall my operating system... only problem is that i lost all of my favorites... could someone please send me the link to the AM Chatzy,
thanx
...
>>By Shoot-To-Kill (Saturday, 13 Nov 2004 04:12)
http://www.chatzy.com/936403132436...I think that's correct, anyway.
Btw, shoot-to kill sounds cool and all, but, was there a time before the phrase "shoot to kill" was invented during which people actually shot to wound? Just wondered.
>>By Just Jon (Saturday, 13 Nov 2004 09:27)
>Btw, shoot-to kill sounds cool and all, but, was there a time before the phrase "shoot to >kill" was invented during which people actually shot to wound? Just wondered.
Hehe... good point Jon. I guess it's just another way of letting people that there shouldn't be a shred of doubt as to what the intention of firing a live round is.
On a general note: Go read The Shooting Gallery, by Gaz Hunter!
Very good read. Similar to CQB in many ways (previously unknown ex SAS man telling his life story), but Gaz was in an interesting position. He also ties in many of his experiences with previously known events.
Among other things, he was OC of Air Troop, B squadron - having Chris Ryan, Dinger, Andy McNab ++ serving under his command. McNab was actually Gaz's troop 2IC at some point.
But be warned: certain scenes makes for a disturbing read. Parental advisory.
>>By ortlieb (Saturday, 13 Nov 2004 14:37)
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