Andy Mcnab
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As for the others not read BoF so it's not that and not read CQB either. Has anyone else read All Necessary Measures maybe it was in there. I'll send the Cadbury's Roses round to you all as an apology!
AIB thanks for the Colt description bagsy I not being the one to find the reusable bullets!!
>>By Bethan (Wednesday, 24 Sep 2003 10:21)
Absolutely, Trident!
"imho all NS missions (read 2,on my third) are a bit alike. kelly is always let down by broken promises..."
The Regiment will always be there to rescue you, you can count on that....
"... NS gets funked over by his own ppl. ..."
Pull together the kit you gonna need, just don't let your Sqdn mates catch you nickin' it. Here's what intel we have but, well, we don't want to have to ask the Yanks for any of theirs now, do we? Comms from B20, the word "compromised", why whatever could that mean? (Shhh, they'll sort it out, and if they don't, who's to know otherwise?) Oh, you made it back after all, did you? Well, don't worry, we've decided not to court martial you...
"... he gets pi**ed off at hierarchy ..."
(see above) Better to save face than men....
"... and need to know. ..."
You don't know this going in, guys, but you're expendable. Off you go....
"... there is always some sort of twist, i.e. the mission is never as easy as it seems. ..."
Terrain, weather, population, enemy proximity, radio frequencies, TACBE range, aerial maps, etc....
"... parts from IA and b20 can also be recognized quite easily in the books."
Pseudo-bio-fiction
This made me smile, Trident, in a very positive “Gee, that says a lot about Finland” kind of way: “… in the 'big four', what is this number? in finland we didn't have a number…”
Our military (well, our government/country, in general) assigns numbers to people as a form of identity (serial numbers, tax id/social security numbers, etc.)
Oooh, Buddy! I was talking LotR's “Fellowship of 9” Elvish!
Hmmm, between Trident’s number question and Buddy’s “9” and the mention of SB’s Sheffield (Patrick McGoohan’s area too), I got thinking of No. 6 and The Prisoner series. Just wondering, has anyone here ever been to Portmeirion (northern Wales), where the outdoor scenes of The Prisoner series were shot? I understand it’s an actual resort where you can stay. Ooooh! What if we had our B&B get-together there!?!
And now, back to Bethan’s brain-beating (bludgeoning?) question….
With all the books we seem to be eliminating, you’d think it would be narrowed down by now. At first, I felt sure it wasn’t in IA, but, Borisette, are we right about that? I even searched through Dean’s stories last night, in case I had read it there (I hadn’t). I can’t quote the passage from Tenth Man Down since I don’t have that book, but maybe Swedish reader or someone else can post it, please…
Lynn, any ETA (estimated time of arrival) on the tulip shipment? Getting quite desperate here!
Totally unrelated question:
Below in the eBay listings, I see the "Price" in US$. What currency do you see? Asking cuz if I go to eBay's actual auction pages, the prices are in GBP for the most part.
>>By am-i-binned (Wednesday, 24 Sep 2003 15:20)
Hhhmm i haven't read Tenth Man Down or All Necessary Measures lol its getting annoying now. I also see US$
>>By christina (Wednesday, 24 Sep 2003 18:48)
Hi AIB,
The price is indeed US dollars below, however, when I click on the product it is in GBP with the approximate USD underneath.
I'm on my soap box and would like to make a quick point to those who occasionally frequent this board with 'AM is scum, he's let the cat out of the bag etc etc'
No one, and I mean NO ONE has yet come here with any info any of us could not find for ourselves with a little bit of research.
Pre-Iranian Embassy, there were few books regarding the Special Air Service. Post IE, there were dozens. It just happened that after Gulf War I the time was right for another SAS 'true story'. It has nothing to do with the men involved, it was just publicly marketable at the time. NOBODY can predict the book market, but AM et al were in the right place at the right time from a publishers point of view and the market was crying out for some real special forces 'memoirs'. Accurate or not, the potential was there and AM was both lucky and clever enough to jump on the band wagon. Dozen's of other regiment members could have written about their own experiences (most were more succesful than B20!) but they didn't think of it. Dinger etc spring to mind straight away. Now they see AM et al raking in a fortune they cry 'he's being disloyal'
BOLLOCKS. Loyalty starts at home, and AM, CR and whoever else you want to quote have not given away anything that couldn't be found before. If you are determined enough, you can find SOP's in a dozen books and a hundred web-sites. But are they the SOP's our boys are working to today? Some yes (the obvious ones), but the real secrets will always remain secret until the day they are replaced by something better and then they are 'leaked to the public' when someone will publish them in a book and ceratin people will scream 'he's betraying the reg, you lot don't know what you're talking about I work for the Government...' blah f***ing blah. AM was in the right place at the right time and took the one opportunity he was ever going to get to make it big. Those who say he is out of order are simply jealous they never thought of it first, jealous they were never in the position to do it first, or just plain ignorant to the world today....
PS 21 reg et al CAN apply for jungle under certain circumstances following initial selection
Okay, sorry, off me soap box now. Any updates on Soldier 5 ............
>>By Apparently (Wednesday, 24 Sep 2003 18:50)
Well, I definitely like to listen to you up there on your soap box, Apparently! Please feel free to jump on it anytime! VBG!!!!
Re: US$ vs GBP -- fanx for the answers! Maybe it's a website default, same as the books being US-Amazon vs UK-Amazon.
>>By am-i-binned (Wednesday, 24 Sep 2003 19:22)
Whoa there, Apparently....Soapboxes are all very well, but it's dangerous to take the mantle of speaking on behalf of those you are now terming "Losers"...
Be assured there are men who served post WWII Para/SAS years before 22 SAS was reinstated as an independent unit from the Parachute Regiment. Maybe you're not aware of that period of reinstatement (50s)...Of those post war men, many could have written their stories, (30 year rule). However, most of those men were unwilling to do so, men who could have secured publishing contracts (no problem), men who still believe that to serve and maintain the secrets of a horrendous term in the Malaysian Peninsular is best left as myth rather than fact, or even fiction based on fact!!!
I, however, am not obligated to any official secrets act, and I can tell you that a policy of beheading senior enemy officianados was wholly acceptable at that time...Would any of you really want to read stories of multiple collection of heads (singular in AM's LL) ? Para/SAS and Marine Commandos became literal "Head Hunters" - savages in every sense of the word going native and in fear of Chinese Torture if caught, plus beheadings, too...Do any of you have any idea what men like that had to live with (memories/nightmares) or what they were like to live with?
You all play at SAS 22 bullshit here, half of what you read merely half the training AM and others are subjected to before being fully operational.
Get on a soap box by all means, but speak from experience or don't take the high ground...
>>By buddy (Wednesday, 24 Sep 2003 19:29)
Further to previous:
LOYALTY does not necessarily begin at HOME. There are some of us out here who value the privacy of ex serving 22 SAS - Para/SAS et al, even though we know things about them that would bring a bundle of dosh our way from the tabloid press, alone, not to mention high-risk kiss & tell books!!!
>>By buddy (Wednesday, 24 Sep 2003 19:38)
re:aib
thanks for having so much faith in the finnish army... we DID manage to hold mighty stalin and his crew away from finland during the 2nd ww...
we do have social security numbers, but they're made up of your birthdate, and a 4 digit code...
f.e. DDMMYY-xxxy, whereas x's are numbers and y is a number or a letter... making it actually pretty redundant to tell the enemy both... oh well.. might aswell join kfor or something and get caught... i'm sure i'll find out then...
>>By trident (Wednesday, 24 Sep 2003 19:52)
Buddy, trust me, we sing from the same hymn sheet, and none of the above comments were aimed at you....
I speak from personal experiences (be they mine or others, it not matter) and I can only relay the feelings inside. My willy is not bigger than yours (oh come on, you must see the funny side by now!) but I wouldn't take the time or effort to tap my fingers on the keyboard unless I had some kind of authority and KNEW I was speaking from some experience - even if it be different from what you have heard/seen...many ways to skin a cat and all that....many ways to deal with life in the forces too........
>>By Apparently (Wednesday, 24 Sep 2003 20:35)
Hi, Buddy! Your soapbox is well placed, too! Listening to both viewpoints, I come away with a more comprehensive win-win picture rather than a pro-con, win-lose debate.
I have always agreed with Apparently's position that AM is not the singular source of all that has ever been revealed about the SAS, yet posters come here from time to time to try to tell us just that. Laying the blame all at AM's feet.
I agree with Buddy that while AM and others may have chosen to write about their experiences and knowledge, others have consciously chosen to remain silent (pre-CA), they live by a different code of conduct, a personal priority and loyalty to the Regiment and their fellow soldiers. I'm not saying one choice is better or worse than the other, only different. And I admire both choices.
I don't think Apparently was equating being envious with being a loser, but I do think that vitriolic, emotional criticism aimed directly at a single, very prominent figurehead can certainly look like sour grapes. I do think that personal life has to have become more difficult for those currently serving due to the public attention which has come their way in the advent of all the SAS-related books, documentaries, and now “real TV” programs. I don’t think the actual attention is that unique, but what seems to be is that you have a very identifiable community (Hereford) for finding these people. (Here in the US, our SF folks are fortunate in that they are a little more broadly dispersed and less “findable.”)
I agree with Buddy that there are definitely stories better left untold. I do not need to share grizzly nightmares that are scary enough in my imagination, let alone knowing the reality of them first-hand detail. And what purpose would such descriptions and knowledge serve? It will not prevent such abominations from being repeated, they will just be committed more covertly the next time.
Bottom line: I do want to learn as much as possible (so I can play my favourite game of SAS bullshit...vbg!), but I do not want to know the kind of information which could jeopardize the lives of these men we admire so much. Believe it or not, I prefer the fact that there is censorship, either self-imposed by Regimental honour or because of either OSA, MoD, or a Whitehall committee (of 1?), so long as it means that the secrets that should stay that way do.
No probs, Trident!
Neat to know about your soc sec numbers -- ours are assigned random numbers -- 123-45-6789. It used to be you'd apply for your ss# when you reached working age (teen years), but now you fill out forms for your newborn before you take baby home from hospital!
>>By am-i-binned (Wednesday, 24 Sep 2003 20:39)
Ooops, CP'ing again. Sorry, Apparently...
>>By am-i-binned (Wednesday, 24 Sep 2003 20:40)
Sorry, but PS......
I know what you say about my comment loyalty starts at home.......
think about it, I said the same as you! Loyalty would never ever compromise, but when you KNOW it won't compromise and there's a few quid to be had, why not? Yes we all know about team work etc, but at the end of the day you look after number 1, right? Surely you must all have heard of DTA? Doesn't work in the reg but in after life is the only f***ing way!
>>By Apparently (Wednesday, 24 Sep 2003 20:41)
On a lighter note, what ever happened to boogle? The first ever poster on this site from the sweet streets of Belfast?
>>By Apparently (Wednesday, 24 Sep 2003 20:43)
I'VE FOUND IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry this doesn't really tie in with the previous posts and is a little trivial but I've finally found the butt-eye tattoo bit that I remember. I decided I'd better skim read the books I had and wallah there it was in Chris Ryan's Stand By Stand By!! (Lot of time on my hands this evening ha ha - there's bloody football on tele).
"At first they were laughing at Murdo because of the dark-red colour of his hair and moustache, and the tattoos which covered him from the neck down. (When he showed them the pair of eyes on his arse, they fell down laughing)." (p.195!!)
There's probably more than one butt-eye quote but oh my god is my brain glad that's solved - or will it be continued? (Tenth Man Down handy anyone?)
>>By Bethan (Wednesday, 24 Sep 2003 21:46)
OMG i remember now and i have read that book thank bloody god lol
>>By christina (Wednesday, 24 Sep 2003 22:01)
Well, Bethan, there is certainly sweet symmetry in you answering your own question but, for me, the mystery remains! I have not read Stand By, Stand By either. Is there maybe an excerpt somewhere that I read which includes the butt-eyes tattoo? And did CR include this Murdo in both books, or did he give this VDM to another character in Tenth Man Down?
>>By am-i-binned (Wednesday, 24 Sep 2003 22:04)
Wow, what a tempting sentence!!
>>"No one, and I mean NO ONE has yet come here with any info any of us could not find for ourselves with a little bit of research.<<
Well, of course, those on DOs don't sign nuffink, so if anything is "outed" it is promptly denied by specific departments as totally deniable = "never heard of him" - "he never served in 22 SAS, and No, he never served in SIS, and No as far as we know he isn't working for the CIA, either..." Same goes for women who've worked on DOs and worked as cover for Deniable Operations...But, some of the above have served in those sectors, due to denial tactics based on "authority" (inhouse departmental politics) speaks truth, the worker on the ground has no voice (credibility), and even if such went to a publisher do you think anyone would believe them (without proof) ?
I dare say there are some old boys in their late 60s/early 70s who would love to boost their ailing pension funds with a book or two, but do you honestly think, if that man could bring himself to do the one thing he has always looked upon as dishonourable to his reg and fellowmen (no matter his circumstances - belief in honour before personal gain) could live with the inevitable feelings of dishonour in the wake of success? You see, you're all talking about different soldiers from different ethical backgrounds...
Compare soldiers pre Thatcher era to those post Thatcher era, and you only have to look at the civilian population to see when and how the "ME" culture (everyone for themself) came about = cowboy builders, plumbers, electricians, and everyone selling to everyone else on self-employed basis, most ripping each other off, and no one loyal to any one company, everyone going for gold, with ludicrous "job titles" sounding better than general dogsbody with shiny trolly instead of bare unpolished metal one, right? In the 80s "almost everyone" suddenly wanted to be middleclass - home-owners, two cars, double-garage, four kids, which meant they could no longer live near their jobs because the working class zone had that "stench" they needed to be disassociated to, so commute for old working class became part of the upward spiral to the new Working Class Middle Rich, and when push comes to shove and money is the driving factor of survival or drown under mountains of credit card debts and mortgage repayments there really is no room for charity, is there? At home, or otherwise!
Strangely, many of you here have castigated CR for being less than selfless in respect of VP. In all fairness to CR he's castigated himself well enough, too, but as Apparently pointed out: "it's everyone for themself" and in situations like B20/TOTGA, that became more apparent than many of you even noticed...He was not the only one from that mission who displayed a sense of (some would say) selfish survival, and indeed the other person knows well enough the pain of having looked to self-survival above all else...
>>By buddy (Wednesday, 24 Sep 2003 22:06)
"Pre-Iranian Embassy, there were few books regarding the Special Air Service. Post IE, there were dozens. It just happened that after Gulf War I the time was right for another SAS 'true story'. It has nothing to do with the men involved, it was just publicly marketable at the time".
Does anyone else think this sentence contradicts itself? It had everything to do with the men involved, McNab took the little SAS book snowball and chucked it down the steepest slope he could find. B20 sold 1.5 million copies before that how many SAS books were bestsellers? You can count them on one hand probably, he caught the public's imagination and gave us a proper glimpse into life behind enemy lines not some boring history lesson. If B20 had disappeared without trace then this little niche market wouldn't exist and the majority of SAS books post-Gulf war one probably wouldn't have hit the shelves. Buddy's last post was spot-on. our perspective on life is totally skewed by money now, behaviour that 20 years ago would have horrified people is ignored because of the big fat pay cheque that makes it all OK.
"Those who say he is out of order are simply jealous they never thought of it first". How do you know that?
Yes the first impression is sour grapes but life is never that black and white. I firmly believe that there is no smoke without fire and that there is more to this behind the scenes argument than we will ever know about and probably with good reason.
AIB
Have you read Zero Option? I'll have to go back to the library for TMD I knew this puzzle couldn't be simple, nothing in my life ever is!
>>By Bethan (Thursday, 25 Sep 2003 10:23)
Not gone yet!!
"Strangely, many of you here have castigated CR for being less than selfless in respect of VP".
You're right there I have probably been one of his biggest critics but then I can only interpret what I read so with respect to TOTGA he brought that on himself. More considered writing could have saved himself a lot of earache! Maybe McNab shared the same opinion about VP as he Ryan did but he had enough clem not to write it down, if that is true (guessing here!!) then it makes McNab a worse person than Ryan.
>>By Bethan (Thursday, 25 Sep 2003 10:31)
Uhm, okay, Bethan...
Not necessarily agreeing with you on everything, but I followed you right up to here: "Maybe McNab shared the same opinion about VP as he Ryan did but he had enough clem not to write it down, if that is true (guessing here!!) then it makes McNab a worse person than Ryan." Huh? Why worse?
And nope, didn't read Zero Option either...
>>By am-i-binned (Thursday, 25 Sep 2003 10:53)
Have you never heard the phrase?
"The unspoken (written) speaks a thousand words!" in a book. More so when official reports (debriefs) exist and others know truth from fiction...
As far as AM goes, there's a lot he hasn't said and won't say, and I don't blame him for that on the personal front? After all, everyone has a right to element of privacy even when globetrotting as a celeb. And, AM's now proved you can gain (buy) privacy if you really want it, but then, if you haven't looked into his eyes you couldn't possibly understand what I'm saying - survival at all costs...
That aside, I find it amusing that you've both opted for AM as the culprit for the unspoken...Doing a double take here ;-) I guess you both sensed "something out of the ordinary" in his earlier auto biography based books, the very ones I haven't read...
Has it ever crossed your minds, despite all the heroics, he might in fact be a little shy in certain circumstances, naive in others which he admits to though seems to be learning fast (all credit to him), and he does have a past that still has little pockets full of secrets...
>>By buddy (Thursday, 25 Sep 2003 11:40)
Buddy stop being so eloquent you're putting me to shame! ("The unspoken (written) speaks a thousand words!" ). If Soldier 5 is published and we read Coburn's version of Vince will it tie in with Andy's? Seems so from what we've heard. But what if Ryan's version is right and it was glossed over in B20 because McNab knew it would be unpopular/reflect badly on him, is that not worse than admitting it? (Ignore emotions/his death). He never really commented on Vince's state of mind (or the others yes I know but that ruins my argument ha ha) so what have we missed? Pure speculation there!
AIB I'm glad you don't agree with me that's why I write these things down so that others can come and point out the flaws in my arguments because there will be some I guarantee it. I'm thinking as I'm writing which is never a good combination so things never come out as I mean them. Got your two pence worth to put in?
>>By Bethan (Thursday, 25 Sep 2003 12:58)
AIB
Forgot to say gutted you've not read Stand By Stand By, the search will continue!
>>By Bethan (Thursday, 25 Sep 2003 12:59)
*sigh*...Andy McNab.....
>>By Pomplemous (Thursday, 25 Sep 2003 13:51)
Aaaah, Pomplemous, your unspoken says so much... VBG!!!
Bethan, I'm still confused on your point about VP and AM's vs CR's versions -- how is it "worse" if AM was discrete (protective) in what he wrote?
>>By am-i-binned (Thursday, 25 Sep 2003 14:22)
If discretion be the greater part of valour, why did AM write an account of B20 in the first place? Tricky old question, that, right?
We know why he wrote it, don't we, the real reason, the reasoning many here deny as factual: he felt gutted, betrayed etc., by those he'd served and trusted, and that was "the something" that finally broke him, "the something" he was guilty of himself, sometimes intentionally, sometimes not, (desperately so)...
Now don't get all high and mightilly defensive, please, "anyone". When I say "broke" him, I mean as in the cracks began to show in his war/operational weary psyche - it happens, it's often strongly denied, but it's there all the same...For all his humour and wit, he was hurting, hurting bad, something he hadn't really felt before because he had done his best to make himself impregnable to emotional pain since early childhood...
>>By buddy (Thursday, 25 Sep 2003 14:41)
I suddenly thought: Oh God, I'm going to get "what does that last bit mean?"
It means: Hurt little boy lashed out, and he can deny that as much as he likes, but it stands out like a pink elephant would at a funeral...
>>By buddy (Thursday, 25 Sep 2003 14:45)
This is assuming he has kept things hidden or not said them, he probably hasn't so this whole argument is redundant but assuming the worst....Why was he discreet? We already know he'd had trouble with Vince's family at his funeral, maybe he just wanted to avoid stirring all that up again (wise decision judging by the backlash against Chris Ryan). But is that the right reason? Surely when you write an account about something you include everything no matter how thorny the subject. I didn't take into account earlier the fact that he was split from Vince for most of the mission so I'm just being unfair. But he does strike me as the type of person to run away from an argument rather than try to run into one (at least an argument he can't fight his way out of).
>>By Bethan (Thursday, 25 Sep 2003 15:22)
Uhm... don't speak badly about the dead (they cannot defend themselves)...
>>By am-i-binned (Thursday, 25 Sep 2003 16:06)
Jeeezus....
You guys are busier than a two-peckered rabbit!! (quiz: that's a quite taken from what move?).
Here I am, swamped with polynome-division and the calclation of acceleration, and here you are; posting page after page without me having the oppurtunity to keep up!! Damnation!!!
As I've been flipping through the pages, I've realized the butt-cheek mystery is solved. As bethan claims (or perhaps it was someone else - I don't have time to flip back to cross-check), I suppose I am the Cameron Spence-guy in here. I could've told you that Spence haven't mentioned the tattooing of butt-cheeks in SS (or ANM for that matter). The bliss of hindsight.....
Ignaty: Yes, Spence really does give Ratcliffe a thurough "beasting" in SS. Having read EOTS and SS, you'll quickly realize why Ratcliffe was provoked. :) I suppose he figured he had to give Spence a "fookin dustin!". *LOL*
I'll see all of ye SAS-nutters in a short while (I hope).
Cheerio!
>>By ortlieb (Thursday, 25 Sep 2003 16:23)
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