Andy Mcnab
Forum
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>>By dxa111 (Saturday, 6 Sep 2003 01:20)
DW is abbreviation for "Dark Winter" which is the name of AM's next book due out on November 3, 2003. :o)
>>By am-i-binned (Saturday, 6 Sep 2003 04:59)
Ohmilord, this just keeps getting weirder! When this came up in a search this morning I assumed it was a different man, same name "Colin Berry" but it's not!
www.eveningstar.co.uk/Content/news/story.asp?
datetime=05+Sep+2003+23%3A03&tbrand=
ESTOnline&tCategory=News&category=
News&brand=ESTOnline&itemid=IPED04
+Sep+2003+13%3A06%3A16%3A237
(remove hard returns where hyperlink wraps)
And when/how did it become killing "two police officers"?!?
>>By am-i-binned (Saturday, 6 Sep 2003 13:21)
Aw, it was just a couple of cigarettes.
Nothing to get upset about.
And about what happened in the hotel, everyone has their own story it seems.
Maybe one day we will find out.
Maybe we never wil.
>>By Lethe (Saturday, 6 Sep 2003 17:14)
That's alot of smokes. Heavens! If the anti-smoking activists get hold of him, he may wish he was back in Kabul!
>>By Dare (Sunday, 7 Sep 2003 03:33)
I am most of the way through Peter Ratcliffe's 'Eye Of The Storm' now, and I am shocked at the way he has just started to slate AM! He is forever calling him and the troops of B20 'stubborn' and always criticising McNab's account of his experiences. In particular, McNab's use of a fighting knife to kill any stray Iraqi dogs in the desert - I read B20 over a year ago, and cant actually remember if AM refers to doing this or not. Ratcliffe then basically calls this bullsh*t, as there is no such thing in the British Army as a fighting knife. Does anyone know any more about this? Does anyone have any comments on Ratcliffe's apparent dislike of AM?
>>By Ignaty (Sunday, 7 Sep 2003 18:42)
Uh-oh! Nasty Sarcasm Alert!
Attitude is everything! That's what I meant about Ratcliffe's attitude, Ignaty. Whether it's knives and dogs, strategic planning, transport vehicles, weaponry, deployment decisions, assuming command, etc., Ratcliffe had all the answers! Astoundingly, Ratcliffe has openly stated that he never read B20, but then again, why should he? So what if he misstates AM and CR? They must be the ones who are wrong. What on earth could AM and CR have been thinking, trying to tell their own stories based on what they themselves had actually experienced? Only thing missing from Ratcliffe's book is an explanation of how he is so deft at walking on water and why his cling-film collection is odorless...
Sorry for my attitude, Ignaty. I do think EotS is good for cross-referencing info, but my hackles go up when it comes to Ratcliffe's know-it-all take on things -- and after all, you did ask... ;o)
>>By am-i-binned (Sunday, 7 Sep 2003 19:44)
Yes, I like the attitude amibinned. It does seem as though Ratcliffe presents himself as an infallible, gung-ho, proud RSM, which gets annoying after a bit. One thing makes me curious, why did he not use a pseudonym?
>>By Ignaty (Sunday, 7 Sep 2003 20:16)
If I may, I'd like to add some comments regarding Peter Ratcliffe's Eye of the Storm:
Ignaty:
If you skip backwards a bit, you'll find myself, AIB and quite a few others discussing EOTS, B20, TOTGA, TRB20 etc. I'm probably the one to blame for bringing the discussion into the open (it had at the time been debated earlier), and I'm probably known as the guy who's read most of the non-fiction SAS-books, but not a single one of AM's novels!!
(Isn't that right AIB? :)
If you've read B20 and TOTGA, I strongly recommend reading Sabre Squadron by Cameron Spence (after you've finished EOTS). It's *extremely* interesting to see how two (sometimes more) people have very different versions and views of events they've experienced together at the same time.
Ken Connor (SAS-veteran who served 23 years in the Regiment and author of the book that I highly recommend, Ghost Force) isn't for example all that impressed with Ratcliffe's decision to conduct a Sergeants Mess behind enemy lines.
Regarding the knife-business:
First of all, it was Chris Ryan that claimed (in TOTGA) that he killed two sentries with a knife. (I seem to remember that McNab says he wasted a couple of dogs, but I'm not 100% sure).
Second, Ratcliffe is stating two things:
1) He says there doesn't exist any form of Army issue fighting-knife in the SAS (or the regular green army for that matter). But he also states that some members of the Regiment occasionally carry personal knifes.
2) What's puzzling Ratcliffe is the fact that Ryan didn't mention the disposal of the sentries with a single word in the "official" Regimental briefings after the B20-op. The lack of mentioning events in offical briefings, but including them in various books, is a fact that Ratcliffe questions. This goes for several other events in addition to the the knife-incident.
I could go on and on, but again: Do read Sabre Squadron!! It's especially interesting to read the books that Ratcliffe sets out to "set straight" in EOTS.
Finally, I think that you, AIB, and probably many others are a bit bias regarding critique aimed towards Andy. :) (No offence).
Personally, I believe Cameron Spence's portrait of Ratcliffe.
>>By ortlieb (Sunday, 7 Sep 2003 21:24)
a) Fame
b) Fortune
c) He's no coward
d) Arrogance
Choose one or all of the above
But I don't really know the guy of course..only his actions concerning B20. What I am wondering about is why all writers after AM have to sell their books by shouting 'to set the record straight' They can do that in (just) an interview, I doubt they'll be denied an interview, plenty of tv-stations looking for sensational stories. But they write a book about it. I don't mind if they have the need to 'cash in' and try to do that by following recent examples but it always seems to be at expence of another writer. Is this something they want or is it a matter of their agent seeking publicity???
>>By Lynn (Sunday, 7 Sep 2003 21:34)
e) All of the above, Lynn, and I absolutely agree that "set-the-record-straight" controversy is sensationalized (exaggerated) for publicity, promotion, and marketing.
Ignaty, you'll find a good portion of earlier discussions of Ratcliffe et al btwn pgs 50-52.
Bias?!? You sense bias, Ortlieb? VBSAG! (very big smart-ass grin!) Okay, guilty. But that doesn't stop me from completely agreeing with your recommendation of Ken Connor/Ghost Force and Cameron Spence/Sabre Squadron); both are excellent.
Part of my prejudice against Ratcliffe also comes from the BBC Panorama program "B20: A Question of Betrayal" (news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/audiovideo/programmes/
panorama/1802091.stm [remove hard return] ), especially since the evidence clearly contradicts Ratcliffe's statements in EotS. But, wait, Ratcliffe wrote EotS to set the record straight and correct every else's errors and modifications, didn't he? Ooops, gotcha, Peter!
Re: dogs, knives, and debriefings...
AM said they heard dogs, and that their only option, if the dogs came to investigate, would have been to kill them (silently with knives) and take the bodies with them. Types may vary but knives are mentioned by several different authors/soldiers as being part of regular kit. In B20, as I recall, AM said both he and Legs had fighting knives and Bob had an M16 bayonet. Debriefs have me confused: per AM, the debrief took about three weeks, then the debrief was consolidated, rehearsed and presented to the entire Regiment, then for next four weeks debriefs were given to all and sundry, including a one-hour edited highlights version, and the last debrief was for B Squadron in August. So which debrief is the "official" debrief?
>>By am-i-binned (Monday, 8 Sep 2003 06:25)
I heartedly agree with Ortlieb you should read Sabre Squadron not only is it a cracking story but he writes a lot like Andy McNab. I have never read EoTS but like AIB mentioned he comes across as a bit of a muppet on the panorama transcript. But I loved Spence's impression of him "fookin doost 'em" classic, I can hear the Yorkshire accent in my head. Thanks Cam!!
As for army fighting knives what about those Ghurka knives do they count because a lot of soldiers carry them.
>>By Bethan (Monday, 8 Sep 2003 09:16)
Any more news on the Crisis Four flick?
I know someone is working on a script, but does anybody have details of the film such as producers / screenwriters?
>>By ShadowRaptor (Monday, 8 Sep 2003 20:30)
Hi All,
Back after a long time away.. how is everyone? Hope you are all well.
And what is this new registration thing??
Ah well.. good to talk on here again anyway.. anything exciting been going down???
>>By Ste (Monday, 8 Sep 2003 21:13)
Hi again, ShadowRaptor and Ste! Long time, no see! You have some serious tabbing, I mean, reading! ahead of you to catch up from where you last saw us... vbg! vbw! ;o)
Good question about CF, ShadowRaptor -- nothing new that I know of but maybe someone else has seen or heard something (certainly hope so!). AM is one of the executive producers, but I don't recall hearing if he's involved with the screenplay...
"new registration thing"? You mean flork, Ste? It's working really nicely -- a really easy way of offboarding with other posters. If you double-click on anyone's orange name, a message box opens to them. Only wish flork automatically saved our outbound messages, too, but I'm sure MG has something like that on his constantly evolving to-do list... :o)
>>By am-i-binned (Monday, 8 Sep 2003 21:54)
AM is exec. producer? Well that's good news. We wouldn't want Nick Stone getting americanised now would we? At least I wouldn't.
Is CF really blockbuster material? It'll need to have a lot of changes -- less gritty, less violent. What if people just dismiss it as a James Bond wannabe?
Hopefully with McNab involved there will be some sort of compromise between faithfulness to the books and audience-pleasing stuff.
Oh yeah why not Sean Bean for Nick Stone? Ages are similiar too.
>>By ShadowRaptor (Monday, 8 Sep 2003 22:53)
Have finished Eye of The Storm. Ratcliffe certainly dedicated enough of the final pages of his work to addressing the numerous 'untruths' in his comrades' books. I will now have to read them all.
About the CF movie... I can't think of an actor I'd like to be Nick Stone at the moment. Will think about it though!
>>By Ignaty (Monday, 8 Sep 2003 23:09)
Hey there Ste and ShadowRaptor! :)
Oh yes, I like the idea of Sean Bean as Nick. :) I hope the PTB don't Americanize Nick either. I wouldn't mind the grittiness or violence as long as they can show why both are necessary and real instead of just using it as throwaway action and what passes for realism in most action films.
>>By Dare (Monday, 8 Sep 2003 23:45)
omg, was on a holiday in kos, and i got back seeing almost 4 pages of new material, that has taken me a while to readthrough.
RE: dogs & knives & stuff
in b20, AM stated that the 203 makes it impossible to put a bayonet on the m16, same with the finnish RK-95, that i'm familiar with. my weapon of choice is a knife version of the bayonet, called "sissipuukko" in finland...
http://www.canit.se/~griffon/knives/m95/
sissipuukko_m95.html (remove hard break after m95/)
RE: aib (on paypal)
i prefer cold hard cash, or gold sovereigns if possible...
>>By trident (Tuesday, 9 Sep 2003 11:08)
A few comments on the side:
After hearing some of CR's statements in the before-mentioned audio-interview (Codemaster-interview for the computer-game Project IGI-2), I was left somewhat puzzled...
About The Real Bravo Two Zero and Michael Asher he comments: (...) "that man has NEVER been in the SAS..."
At first glance one would think that CR knows what he's talking about; not only because he's ex 22 SAS, but especially when the unit Asher "claims" he was once a member of (23 SAS, TA) is the very same unit CR originally joined as a 16-year-old.
So... if CR is correct, I suppose Asher would have his credibility blown out of the water by now?
For those of you in here who are Brits (and have heard CR's voice):
Is CR's accent "Geordie"? And is "Geordie" a term for people originating from a certain geographical area in the UK, just as "Taff" points to those who are Welsh, and "Mick" points to those who are Irish?
>>By ortlieb (Tuesday, 9 Sep 2003 16:35)
Yeah, CR is a geordie, but I only know this from descriptions of him.
I know CR's accent but is that why he's a geordie?
What exactly is a geordie anyway?
>>By ShadowRaptor (Tuesday, 9 Sep 2003 17:36)
Hey guys,
A geordie is someone who comes from Newcastle in the north of England. Their accent is very pronounced and recognisable lol. As are Irish and Welsh accents.
I'm from London and we speak English how it's meant to be spoken hehe :p
>>By Ignaty (Tuesday, 9 Sep 2003 17:39)
Hey
Yep that is true most of my family are geordies but i have a lovley lancashire accent though.
>>By christina (Tuesday, 9 Sep 2003 17:43)
Hiya Christina,
You at school at the mo? I am stuck at mine, waiting for a darned parents evening to start. Keep getting suspicious looks from people as I look over this message board with comments about the IRA all over it lol
>>By Ignaty (Tuesday, 9 Sep 2003 17:59)
After reading The Real BT0, i came to believe tat there is something wrong with CR's TOTGA. Why would he blame Vince some much when Vince is a seasoned veteren and the more experienced in te team?I know cR blamed him for compromising the mission but did he blame him because of sensing the guilt from Vince's death?
>>By dxa111 (Wednesday, 10 Sep 2003 01:45)
dxa111
A few of us had a few thoughts on Vince and the CR story before. Only the people that were there know what state of mind Vince or for that matter the rest of the patrol were in and hypothermia would have meant that none of them were up to their usual standards. If you notice AM does not lay the blame for the compromise at Vince's door but says he was the one that had eye contact with the boy. It could have been both of them. All criticisms reflect badly not just on the person they were levelled at but at the patrol leader too - guess who!!
My personal feeling as I have probably said before (apologies!) is that most of CR's negative criticisms come from his belief that he would have led the patrol better himself and prevented a lot of the 'f**k ups' to quote Mr McNab himself.
As for Asher, don't forget he had the same money-driven motive as CR and AM and that to sell his book he had to prove them wrong, nobody was going to buy their stories re-written exactly by him. Controversy sells books.
>>By Bethan (Wednesday, 10 Sep 2003 10:08)
dxa 111 and Bethan:
If you read the latest edition of TOTGA, you'll find a new foreword-section written by CR. It's a bit clarifying regarding CR's original (negative) statements about Vince. Amongst other things, CR blames himself for not using his skills as a mountain-guide and tying Vince to himself (physically tying) as he saw that Vince was going down with hypothermia.
Also, a lot of the hailstorm aimed towards CR came shortly after the release of the TV-version of the book. In this new foreword, he comments that the production-company totally bypassed him, and went back on the promise that he'd get a final word in how things was going to be presented on screen. In short, things got out of CR's control, and as he states himself - the TV-version is a product he does not endorce at all.
If one is to believe Asher's version (or at least some of it), it wasn't the goatheard-boy who compromised the patrol, but his father Abbas (or - "an idiot on a digger" as McNab describes him).
Still, as you say Bethan: controversy sells, and I truly believe that AM's and CR's publishers has played a crucial role in the "spicing up" of events in order to sell more books.
>>By ortlieb (Wednesday, 10 Sep 2003 10:51)
I have seen the documentary : Real Bravo Two Zero, but I haven't read the book. Is it any good?
It seems to me that Michael Asher based all his evidence on what the Iraqis said. I wouldn't really trust him; he says he was in the SAS, but apparently he was only in the reserves.
>>By ShadowRaptor (Wednesday, 10 Sep 2003 15:35)
i just bought TOTGA yesterday (the one with the foreword, like ortlieb mentioned), and read it today in one sitting, and am now in the middle of b20 for the n:th time...
the two books seemed oddly different from each other, with several things that stayed out like a sore thumb, f.e. shutting off the chinhook props at the refuelling place at Arar...
AM (b20 pp.74)
"We landed in inky blackness for a hot refuel, which meant staying aboard with the rotors moving"
vs.
CR (TOTGA pp.47)
"When we landed to refuel at Arar, the pilot shut down his engines..."
also AM fails to mention B30 being on the chinhook with them...
aswhere CR hasn't felt it important to mention any scud launches while on the ground.
just some parts that i felt strange...
the foreword by CR, was written in 2001, with a lot more information than in 95 when the original book was written.
on a personal/humble note, i would like to say, that in really stressy situations, it's easy to put the blame on a "weaker" person, thus getting you off the hook.
i.e. AM says that vince had started limping after the firefight with the APV's, and CR
doesn't.
i don't know if it's because i read b20 first, and have read more AM books, but CR has seemed more negative about the mission...
wow, another long post, hope you don't mind
>>By trident (Wednesday, 10 Sep 2003 18:21)
I think Dinger was to blame!!
>>By Scouse (Wednesday, 10 Sep 2003 23:18)
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