Andy Mcnab
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it was me that started the tangential discussion I was reminiscing about good ol army issue grundies...
>>By geo (Saturday, 14 Aug 2004 01:58)
oh 14th August... bugger me it's my birthday
>>By geo (Saturday, 14 Aug 2004 02:03)
happy birthday geo.
>>By Nemesis2842004 (Saturday, 14 Aug 2004 02:09)
Can't wait for the release of 'Deep Black' on the 4th November. I hope it is the novel it is cracked up to be, thought 'Last Light' was his worst one, although good, 'Liberation Day' was better and 'Dark Winter' was back up to the high standard of 'Firewall', 'Crisis Four' and 'Remote Control'. Anyone agree ?
>>By jason bourne (Saturday, 14 Aug 2004 14:47)
Yea, up your's geo..................in salute of course ! Have a good one !
Sorry peachbeach, it's just forces's humour !
A bit of humour now and again goes a long way....................thongs ! ..........who said thongs ?
mmmm ! ..............................down boy, leave it Reg !
Excuse my failing memory everyone but can any of you or young birthday boy enlighten me as to what nationality the late Consi (Rob Consigliio) was from B20.
Anyway, I wonder what AM would be pondering if he was still serving and was present within the recent Iraqi conflict. How much different the scenario is from 1991. It would be interesting to know any strategies that he would of liked to have seen implemented in theatre compared to the present and ongoing op. policy. It's definitely a tough one but I am sure that he supports the majority of objectives that are in force today, as do I. Many countries or regions heavily impregnated with islam, during forms of unrest and with outside intervention from the west, will always prove difficult as like in the west itself, when people have varying beliefs from minor to the extreme. Being totally unbiased and neutral, the fact remains that in regions like the Middle East, religion has been indoctrinated into people for thousands of years, anything else for many (though not all) is simply wrong - black and white ideaology.
In part it is similar to the ideaology and thinking of terrorists. I'll ellaborate more if anyone is interested in the psychology of terrorism.
Terrorists are mainly motivated by political, social or indeed personal means. It has been proven that many have suffered from some form of narcissistic injury in the past ie. personal damage to self-esteem etc which accounts for the predominant "personal battle" inside of the terrorist to feel some form of adequacy. Terrorists have the remarkable ability to see the world in black and white, (as do many islamic citizens though this is unintentional, just centuries of indoctrination). The terrorist's view is black and white, he/she is right and everyone who opposes are wrong. Period. Because of the state of mind of many terrorists (narcissistic injury), many such people in extremist groups are nearly always led by an authoritive figure of which commands are obeyed without question. A leader will often persuade these impressionable individuals by means of highlighting the "religious rewards" they and their families will receive if they join for "the cause".
Regarding indoctrination, in regions where much inter-generational conflict has occured (Middle East, NI etc.), many so called "players" have not actually experienced any hostility, injury or hardship to themselves or family from their "foes". From experience in NI, I have spoken or become aware of many individual "terrorist" suspect of whom when questioned, became apparent that they were fighting the cause simply because certain other people around them were doing so. Also because their family, through generations of bad feeling, have imprinted the new generation with hostile views.
Indoctrination to the extreme can be exampled with suicide bombers. Such people, unlike conventionable terrorist, are motivated mainly by religious means only, or to be more precise, their leader's own religious interpretation.To these people, their audience is with god alone. Obviously, these people are more dangerous because they are not only "willing" to die but actually "want" to die.
It's all a bit deep for me and is just the tip of the iceberg into understanding terrorism etc.
Regards,
>>By Reginald (Saturday, 14 Aug 2004 15:51)
bob consiglio was british, but come from italian heritage, makes a change a italian fighting.
have to disagree about motivation though, it's purely religious, they are in some dream world that allah or god or whatever you believe in can help you. what a load of crap, i believe in something i don't know what it is but it just makes me feel better, but to follow what was probably a andy mcnab novel, thousands of years ago, they needs to take a look around and realise that there is no god and that we are the only people that change history( or the people we elect anyhow).
>>By Nemesis2842004 (Saturday, 14 Aug 2004 19:10)
Reg, in the Mirror Andy has written a series of articles in 2003 about Gulf War II.., if you go to www.mirror.co.uk and do a search for Andy McNab, you’ll find the articles there.
Congrets Geo, have a nice day :o)
>>By Lynn (Saturday, 14 Aug 2004 19:13)
just one thing lynn the mirror is the most anti-british soldier newspaper we have so please don't use them for reference.
>>By Nemesis2842004 (Saturday, 14 Aug 2004 20:12)
I promise I will only make exceptions for Andy's articles ;o)
>>By Lynn (Saturday, 14 Aug 2004 20:45)
Addendum re: Bob C.... per AM, "he was of Swiss/Italian extraction..."
>>By am-i-binned (Saturday, 14 Aug 2004 21:08)
hooked on AM books, think they are great and cant wait for the new one in november.
>>By becks (Saturday, 14 Aug 2004 21:31)
Hello Jason (nice identity) and Becks (very posh), welcome here.
We're all eager to read the new book, great to kill our waiting period here ;o)
As for 'anyone agree' - for me all books have their own charm, my fav is still Remote Control though.
>>By Lynn (Saturday, 14 Aug 2004 21:52)
Reg. 'Also because their family, through generations of bad feeling, have imprinted the new generation with hostile views.'
I worked in Ireland for a year during 2002/2003 and my nieghbours were a couple int heir early twenties, we lived in a converted house so the walls were paper thin, they knew I was abrit and thus played 'Provo' songs very loud at all hours of the day...
these songs were reflective of the 1920's when the IRA movement was very big in cork, the songs were all about freedom and how Ireland would never be defeated, etc etc.... apart from being immensly pissed off cos I had to work the following day, and music at volume tends to disrupt my beauty sleep....
I felt very sad and a bit bemused that these youngsters were passionate about something that they probably in all reality knew f**k-all about, had we been living in Andersons town or off the ormeau road then yes I could understand their views.
One song in particular was about oppression, which they kept playing over and over... I thought 'who the F**ks oppressing these clowns?..... Bertie Ahern maybe!!
There is aculture in Cork which idolises the early IRA and given Britains treatment of all its subjugated colonies back then, then yes I can appreciate the views.... But now.... hopeless prats holding on to a dead past...
PS. ear plugs & Aerosmith at 120dB(A) works wonders against provo songs at two in the Morning
>>By geo (Saturday, 14 Aug 2004 22:59)
All you colonials out there (Americans that is),
How is your media treating all the American deaths in Iraq, how are the bereaved families respnding?
>>By geo (Saturday, 14 Aug 2004 23:03)
Ortie's military contemplation for the day:
I wonder when pride and stubbornness is going to yield for professionalism and efficiency?
Look at the US troops involved in urban warfare in Iraq. Brit forces have over 30 years of CQB warfare from Northern Ireland. How often do you think US forces are likely to ask the Brits for hints & tips of the trade?
Same thing happened the other way around when the Regiment deployed to Iraq in '91.
The SAS was seriously lacking in material, and all squaddies (at least B Squadron) had to nick and trade with others to get a couple of 40mm grenades here, phosphuor there, and so on and so forth. AM and his team had to make improvised claymores from plastic cans, PE and nails. One SSM managed to withhold a whole shipment of NVG's because he used the boxes containing this vital kit to weigh down the edges of his tent (!).
200 yards away at the other side of the fence, US troops were sitting on mountains of all kinds of shiny kit.
SAS troops were being issued over 40 year old maps of their ops-area.
(I think it was 1:500 000 scale even). The Regiment head-shed could've requested up-to-date satellite-photos from their American allies, but didn't....
Earlier on, we could read about UK forces having to buy their own handheld GPS-sets, webbing and what have you to be able to their job properly.
Things aren't adding up.......
>>By ortlieb (Saturday, 14 Aug 2004 23:15)
Ortlieb, we were buying berghaus kit, norweigen army shirts and all sorts of essential goodies to make you comfortable in the field, long before the MOD got the drift and started to issue these bits of Kit... I mean I was wearing puttees when I joined up ferchristsake
>>By geo (Saturday, 14 Aug 2004 23:20)
You should all find a copy of Simon Murray's Legionnaire as fast your combats will carry you. Its a monster of read as it sneeks a peak at you in the opening chapters then clamors over the pages and grabs you by the head and shakes it violently. I'm reading it again before passing it on.
Out.
>>By Sexibeast (Saturday, 14 Aug 2004 23:25)
Geo, as a citizen of your former colony, I'll field the question regarding bereaved families.
I have seen a few parents of K.I.A. soldiers interviewed on local news, and while they were of course heart-broken, they all pointed out the pride they felt over their sons or daughters willingness to do their duty no matter the cost.
As for the media, they will report "Three Marines killed today" (or whatever, usually Marines, it seems like), but they don't really dwell on it...At least not the news I watch.
Ort, I agree U.S. forces should take advice when it's beneficial, but it's not like they never do...Our top unit, Delta Force, was designed as a near carbon-copy of SAS, after all.
Also, the reason U.S. troops have more kit is because we spend a crap load of money on defense...And then we spend a crap load on offense, for good measure. I agree that in the field we should share with our allies, but ultimately an army must be supplied by their own nation.
>>By Sick of Cute Screennames (Sunday, 15 Aug 2004 05:41)
good post socs, you said it "spend", but as soon as we have a small conflict the politicians just go "hmm better kit = less manpower lets let a few units go". excuse my opinion if someone does not agree but that's what the board is about "opinions". my version of the new budget would benefit britain greatly, first take the asylum seeker budget and place it into the defence budget, secondly if they want asylum they will have to serve in the forces for a mandotory 8 years ( whats worse the military or a regime that screws you over) , thirdly get rid of this political correctness lark, well maybe make it so it's fair at least. just a thought anyway.
>>By Nemesis2842004 (Sunday, 15 Aug 2004 17:45)
oh yeah and the asking for cooperation post too, well as far as hearts and minds go the US could learn a lot, but the somalia episode, made me realise that US forces are quite good at the whole cqb/mout type of thing.
>>By Nemesis2842004 (Sunday, 15 Aug 2004 17:48)
Yes it's true, SOCS, are friends across the pond do hate us(Americans). I have had the run in's with them too.
The simple thing to do would be to back off and let them do the dirty work next time. Maybe the airplanes will fly into thier buildings next time. Maybe we should let Osamas world flurish? Evidenetlly we are just doing the wrong thing?
I personally could not be more proud of the soldiers in Iraq and Afgan theaters.
HOORAA!!!
>>By DTO (Sunday, 15 Aug 2004 19:04)
DTO: We don't hate you, you are about the only nation on the planet (as well as the aussies and kiwis) that could ever be our brothers. We like americans in the uk, maybe not all of the population, but half ain't even british anymore, and of course you've got the peace corps and their whole america is the root of all evil bullshit. but hey i tell you one thing if half of the critics just for once had a look in a history book , they might realise that the british through the generations make hitler look like the teletubbies. but that could be the reason also, maybe we are forever appologising about are past, but personnaly i think we moved with the times and if we keep on feeling sorry for all the bad things we have done, we should maybe get a kick in the ass.
>>By Nemesis2842004 (Sunday, 15 Aug 2004 21:06)
Stephen Restorick was the last British soldier to be shot dead in Northern Ireland.
Seven-and-a-half years later, peace has come at last to the troubled province, but Rita Restorick is still waiting for the truth about the events that led to the death of her beloved son.
Now, in a twist that is almost too much for her to bear, one man who has vital information that could finally unlock the mystery has been silenced – not by a sniper's bullet, but by her own Government.
The Ministry of Defence has won a gagging order against a former undercover soldier, which has prevented the media publishing further disclosures about Stephen's death.
(..)
The soldier, who has been given the name "Tony Buchanan", told The Sunday Times that less than a hour before Stephen was shot, RUC Special Branch, advised by MI5 and military intelligence, had made the decision not to arrest the IRA gang that shot him.
(..)
Mr Buchanan, was a member of the 14th Intelligence and Security Company, an SAS-trained surveillance unit known as "the Det"
(..)
Mr Buchanan said colleague had told him the IRA sniper gang was under Det surveillance less than an hour before they struck.
He also said that when the gang was detected moving towards the vehicle checkpoint in Bessbrook that Stephen was manning, an order was issued to the Det and an SAS backup unit to stand down and not intervene. The revelations raised questions as to whether Restorick was put at risk to protect the life of an informant in the gang or to avoid ill feeling in IRA ranks.
Full article:
http://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/
ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=845&ArticleID=828934
>>By Lynn (Sunday, 15 Aug 2004 22:06)
R.E nemesis' first post: I agree with you about the assylum budget into defence because im sure that would make britain a less comfortable option for them all, but I don't know about the mandatory 8 years in the army. I think a good option would be stick young offenders in the army, give them an option: either go to a borstal or join the army, that would boost the armed forces' manpower a bit and might even put a dent in the crime rate. Personnally I would welcome back national service but I suppose we don't need that amount of men now that we have no empire to control but some form of national service anyway. As for the politacal correctness thing, sounds like something michael howard said last week. Simple answer to that one, vote conservative.
And DTO we don't all hate you. Sure if an american starts spouting off a load of bullshit we'll just say "oh typical yank" but it's just a sterio-type, just like you lot picture us sipping tea with the queen every afternoon. Every nation has it's idiots and from my experince the "typical, ignorant yank" who talks before he thinks is just an ill educated teenager with nothing better to do but annoy people. After all the british can always expect support from the americans on major political decisions and vise versa.
>>By Mickalos (Sunday, 15 Aug 2004 22:11)
Thanks to all my British friends who have posted above. I never thought ALL Europeans and Brits hate us, it's just that the ones who do seem basically jealous or something. I'm not going to apologize to anyone for living in a rich and powerful country, and I for one hope that our allies become equally rich and powerful.
Also, I'd like to point out that I and a lot of other Americans are here on this board praising the writing and accomplishments of a BRITISH soldier, so those who think Americans don't have any regard for others are sadly mistaken.
>>By Sick of Cute Screennames (Sunday, 15 Aug 2004 23:36)
i would just like to say that all us brits and americans have fought together so whats the problem?
>>By becks (Monday, 16 Aug 2004 00:05)
Well said, becks, I could have saved myself (and everyone else) two long-winded posts, because that's exactly the point behind what I was saying. Thanks.
>>By Sick of Cute Screennames (Monday, 16 Aug 2004 00:22)
<<Obviously, these people are more dangerous because they are not only "willing" to die but actually "want" to die.>>
welllllllll.... this is debatable.
I just got back from a conference during which a talk was given on the psychology of terrorism. The general theme as far as suicide bombers are concerned is that they aren't REALLY suicidal. In other words, if you look at the traits common in suicidal people, they aren't really the same characteristics that you find in suicidal bombers. The suicidal bomber (tends to be a young, misguided kid who just want to fit in, tends to have low-self esteem, and seeks out authority figures. Those authority figures then indoctrinate these kids into the organization, isolate them from their friends and family (sound cult-ish??), show them how other suicide bombers are held up as 'martyrs', urge them to write a final letter to their loved ones, and then send them on their missions.
For all intent and purposes, the suicide bomber is "dead" to the rest of the world after this indoctrination and finds it very difficult to change their minds about their mission at this point (after all, they've already written the letters to their families!) Incidently, when you ask the group leaders why THEY don't become martyrs for the cause, the common response is that they are too important and must remain on Earth to guide the younger ones. Nice.
Orty: <<I wonder when pride and stubbornness is going to yield for professionalism and efficiency?>>
Sadly, it's not just across cultures that pride and stubbornness exist. Think about the competitiveness and lack of communication between the CIA and FBI.... :-(
>>By Majorette (Monday, 16 Aug 2004 01:48)
Read this little snip from you know who at you know where (B/Dev) and you can see why T. Buchanan will be under extreme pressure to remain silent or else! Oh, and by the way I in't flygirl, not really, think flyboy in drag. Did an Am-I-Binned swap profile on yer all.
****
before I forget, for anyone interested in incidentals and of course,
any anti-paras out there: A Para (parachute reg) brigadier is
presently heading UK Special Forces Directive.
So, what's been hitting the news of late, other than Iraqi militants
fan-dancing to occupying forces?
Well, quite a lot really... Meantime, most people in the know have
been keeping a low profile - hedging bets and avoiding journalists as
though the black plague lurks within the depths of their
untrustworthy red-eyed pointy-nosed street-snuffling profiles.
Strange isn't it, how some ex-military bods continually court / flirt
with the press while others high-tail it into the shadows yet no less
famous or less popular figures in literary labarynths delegated as
that of special forces territory. After all, popularity of special
forces style books speak for themselves.
Behind the scenes, however, many questions have been asked and
answers given on what is classified a whistleblower book, of which
the likes of Andy McNab (ex SAS), Chris Ryan (ex-SAS) were branded
whistleblowers, traitors to the Reg (and their colleagues), and even
today members and ex members of the SAS are still split-down-the-
middle on the subject of kiss 'n' tell books. At present, AM and CR
are two of the most famous SAS men of all time worldwide, but are
they infamous for all the wrong reasons? Then of course, when
engaging in conversation about whistleblower books, one cannot
proceed without mention of ex SBS /RMs / Paras et al, or that of ex
14th Intel, and what of top of the tree whistlers? The most
infamous, that of Richard Tomlinson (ex-MI6 agent), and Stella
Rimington (one-time head of MI5), and, the rest!!!
Who though, brands these people as whistleblowers, and do we, when
the chips are down, (despite reading their memoirs) really, really
approve of whistleblowers? Is it true, as some academics (even that
of known rebel entities) and establishment figures claim, that
whistleblowers who get away with whistling their personal tunes
undermine the very substance that retains any rockbed of solidarity,
whether talking about a regiment in the British army, government
department, or that of commercial enterprise. So, did AM and CR et al
high-jack the personal biographies of colleagues? I suppose opinion
would all depend on knowledge of whether these people shared the
proceeds of the books with their mates (alive, or families of the
dead)...
As to ongoing investigations in the realms of military and terrorist
factions, one can never predict where a particular investigation
(Gov / MoD / Business World) will lead, and how one case, or the
other, or several, will appear linked in some way: right back to the
SAS and security forces (?) ...Ah, do I hear a faint
whispering... "Oh hell, here we go, yet another conspiracy theory..."
No, but truth (real truth) can surface and swim before our very eyes
in the most unlikely source' pool. How long ago was it when Richard
Tomlinson served six months in prison for a one year sentence, and
all because of writing the "Big Breach". Now, here's crunch one: It
was John Scarlet (new chief of MI6) who in 1997 testified against
Tomlinson...<<these two have history>> Second crunch...It was a
colleague in MI6 who (allegedly) showed Tomlinson a detailed plan to
kill Slobodan Milosevic...The way they were going to enact "the kill"
was to use a "powerful white lazer beam" in a tunnel, which would
disorientate Milosevich's driver and induce blindness and loss of
control of the car...<< take note>>...
Now, let's move on to the fact that Richard Tomlinson is due to
testify to the Metropolitan Police inquiry into the death of Diana,
Princess of Wales. Meantime, British Special Branch officers flew to
Israel last week to interview three journalists about RT's
involvement with an Israeli arms dealer. It is known that the British
SBO's had fifteen specific questions they wanted answered! The word
on the intel grapevine was that MI6 were about to implement a belated
crackdown and harsh treatment on Whistleblowers, (that's now public
domain news) which presupposes they want to shut mouths that could
unleash a huge backlash of public outcry, but what kind of news would
cause a tidal wave of disgust against the intelligence services? Is
Tomlinson's life now genuinely at risk? Will he live to testify to
the inquirers into Diana's death? To top the Tomlinson pie of intel
discontent, came the crust that a vengeful Serb had betrayed a top
MI6 man....<< Link-a-link and before you know it you got a chain in
your hand...>>
Whichever way you look at these breaches of internal security info,
there are those in the security services who court and flirt with
journos just for the kick of being first with snipits of gossip:
classic cases of gob-manic egotism...
Tangent mode now, but airing toward stereotyped SAS men: To kick this
little tale into orbit I can say I was honestly looking to get away
from spy thrillers and SAS adventure books and bought what I thought
was a fairly ordinary novel - down to earth female PI (Private
Investigator) and there was nothing within the book blurb to suggest
SAS sweat would soon dampen the corner of the pages. Well, fuck-me-
stupid, the heroine had a past, a childhood past that dogged her
every sleeping/waking hour as much as her present missing woman
case...To cut to the chase: of all the bloody sequences the author
could have used as a mutual past of father and daughter it had to be
that of an SAS man, not least, one who supposedly served in Oman (D
Squadron) and of course mapped out as a stereotypical "Macho
Aggressive Wife-Beater and family Abuser" and well, that fucked the
book thence onward for me...
To be quite honest, I think Andy McNab's missus and axe-grinding
tales of SAS men in sexual stallion mode was a pointedly accusing
finger at a sex mad and morally depraved regiment for the sole
purpose of financial gain: nothing more nothing less if you take into
account the books publication date...The problem then arose in
respect of regimental reputation: where did truth about the SAS men
end and modern myth begin? In fact, most of the men like any other
healthy military personnel were certainly guilty of dirty thoughts
but far from guilty of infidelity by any stretch of imagination,
while others went AWOL from marriages on a regular basis. Of those
with small dicks and big egos it was well known they revelled in talk
of bonking like rabbits in the Hereford warren, and while the beer-
drupe boys argued the toss the donkey-endowed were less vocal about
their exploits...I guess that's understandable, what have men with
big dicks to prove to their mates? Also, accounts of violent rage
scenarios as opposed to that of hundreds of cases of kindness by
regiment boys did the Reg far more damage than the man himself - as I
see it...
Damn it all. I had first-hand experience of a Special forces officer
losing it, literally, and killing whilst in a rage, but he was not a
wife-beater nor family abuser... I had first-hand experience of
special forces men crying during therapy... I also had first-hand
experience of special forces couples seeking therapy, together...And
here I am, thinking. what a great pity it is, that all SAS men are
being stereotyped as brutal wife-beaters and family abusers by
authors cashing in on the three letters (SAS) that mean so much to
the men who made it through selection to the SAS.
>>By flygirl (Monday, 16 Aug 2004 10:14)
Strong defense of the reg I'd say? Cor blimey made me sit up and think. This is an insider with a balanced viewpoint. Swallows no bullshit does this one. Divorced from special forces now as I understand it and not a bad taste hate in this woman for reg men unlike the press who have crucified the whole bloody military machine since GW1. Yanks included.
Going choppy on immigrants up for boot camp regime. Yeh, put them through an SAS type six week intensive training and bet most would sign a get out sheet for the next flight home if you want. It wouldn't happen like that would it. The sort of young immigrant men coming over here can survive on next to nothing and still fight like jungle tigers.
Who gave the talk on the psychology of terrorism Maj? Any follow up URLs? From the day we are born we're indoctrinated, from the day we sign up to fly the military flag we are indoctrinated to kill kill kill. The Japanese k k pilots weren't driven by religious fervour they just believed the sun shone out of their Emperor's arse and were willing to die for him. Al Qaeda fighters are willing to die for Ossie and the cause, which is to rule the world under the flag of Islam. It's a pretend holy war? the flag of Islam is their cover. They are not religious men. They flaunt in the face of the teachings of Islam.
I was recently told to look up on history of the crusades and check out the Knights Templar history. Guess what? Blimey, that's a can of worms. what the Pope and his army of knights did in terms of ethnic cleansing and destruction of the knights templar. What I read shook the foundations of my childhood learnings. What are local priest spouted was a river of lies. I always thought so as a kid like you do because you know all adults want to be in charge of how you think, how you act, and what you might say to other people. When you join the military it's like being a kid all over again. You do as you are told or suffer the consequences and you clean up your own mess. In the security services. There's always a new broom sweeping up your litter before the floor gets real dirty! That's another world entirely and not one I would choose to joust in.
So long. up up and away beckons.
>>By flygirl (Monday, 16 Aug 2004 11:11)
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