Andy Mcnab
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method=full&siteid=50082&headline=
welsh-sas-sergeant-among-iraq-body-count-name
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>>By Lynn (Monday, 12 Jul 2004 00:26)
HA, page 185 - getting near 200 :-)
Since I'm on news articles anyway:
"A 25-man SAS team has been sent to Saudi Arabia to bolster security at the British embassy and plan a possible mass evacuation of foreigners, defence sources said last night."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/06/23
/wsaud23.xml&sSheet=
/portal/2004/06/23/ixportal.html
>>By Lynn (Monday, 12 Jul 2004 00:34)
But then..of course:
24 June 2004 — The British Embassy has denied reports that Britain has sent a 25-strong special forces team to Saudi Arabia to bolster security at the embassy and plan a possible mass evacuation of foreigners.
>>By Lynn (Monday, 12 Jul 2004 00:40)
Hello All,
AM is a bloody good writer, I'll admit he does repeat himself in his books, but we know the reasons behind this. I am usually fairly gripped by the novels and read them till my eyes bleed!.
However some of the members here seem to worship the guy. I'm sure you'ld all kiss his backside on a hot sweaty day!!
I have not read all the pages here, but I haven't seen it mentioned that the guy lead a patrol which was a disaster which ended in guys getting killed. Did he really deserve the MM and all the subsequent glory for that?
I have read quite a few books by ex-gulf war sas bods and obviously personal accounts differ and I've also read Micheal Asher's book, and although he places far too much trust in the 'good word and honour' of the locals, I think that his 'investigative' account is quite realistic (distances, locations etc ), I havent quite got around to reading Mike Coburns book but I cant help wondering my did AM in his role of MOD censor try to stop it being published.
I spent 17 years in green skin and the aim of the game where humanly possible was to complete the task and bring your guys back alive. I wasn't in the SAS so I cant say that I ever faced the dangers that AM faced and I think I would have probably died had I ended up in an Iraqi jail having the guards giving me the good news with whatever came to hand, but when all is said and done B20 was a downright failure.
In Peter Ratcliffes (I think thats his name I cant find my copy!) book as RSM he stated that he and the CO tried to persuade AM to bin the idea of going in by foot, and that is surely the reason why Vince Bob and Legs died. Ok maybe they would have been killed in a contact regardless of the mode of transport that they employed but that is something that we'll never know.
When all the other patrols went in by landrover what on earth possessed AM and his patrol to yomp in!! And then write about it like they were heroes.
I'll finish as I started, he is a bloody good writer ( better than Chris Ryan thats for sure, Ive read two of his books and in each the character was an SAS officer !! inferiority complex or what , he was a full screw for christs sake... one of the best ranks to be.. along with WO 2 enough power and responsibility but less bullshit than the rank above) and I hope he writes more of the same, but It would be refreshing if he got off the pedestal that he's been placed on and has the humility to admit that he screwed up and it cost lives.
>>By geo (Thursday, 15 Jul 2004 03:33)
According to Coburn, they did indeed consider taking vehicles, but they had all been allocated. The only vehicle available to B20 was a short wheel base Landrover (a dinkie), which could not have fitted 8 guys plus kit. Ratcliff onlt says that he advised AM to take "a" vehicle, but does not mention whether these were available.
A big share of the responsibility also goes to whoever was supplying kit, as they were short of everything, claymores, silenced pistols etc. It is all very well saying a soldier must be flexible & adapt, however in my view that is the wrong way to start a war. Therer is simply no excuse for not having the right kit available to these guys. Also responsible is whoever cocked up & gave B20 the wrong radio frequency. Had they been able to call for exfil, they may all be alive today.
>>By Yanito (Thursday, 15 Jul 2004 11:50)
imo, and i've said it before... with all the small incidents put together it resulted in a major cockup. putting the blame at just one person is not the way to go. errare humanum est.
i just got through s5, and actually was hoping to learn something new about the whole thing, but i feel b20 has started to stretch out on it's 15 minutes of fame.
just my 5 <insert currency here>.
>>By trident (Thursday, 15 Jul 2004 12:46)
Hi Geo, interesting comments. You should note the 'people' who worship AM on these pages are all female and perhaps have a different perspective to us blokes (look at bg's latest on the CR board, ah, marines and firemen!) but they are all good mates and I hope they won't be offended by my interpretation of their motives! They are only normal after all. Don't think I read the books because I fancied the author.
I found Michael Asher's views challenging at first, disappointing even, I wanted to believe the accounts in the books B20 and TOTGA. But, having read S5, Peter Ratcliffe and the various others who have referred to the mission, Gaz Hunter, Cameron Spence, Peter Crossland, and others, it is clear that confusion and disinformation will now cloud the issues forever. As an aside, it is noteable that in Ratcliffe's other book 'The Little Book of the SAS', the only ex-members mentioned are AM and CR. Seems odd, given the slagging they got in his book. Could be he has come to realise that, without the efforts of these two, the Special Forces biog would not be the certain seller it has become?
The other enigma of course, is the size of this board, why are so many of us so inspired by the works of these men who are not even 'professional' writers? (they are now of course, by default). There are many famous, prolific authors catered for on this site and yet their boards are empty, nobody is sufficiently exorcised to discuss their works it seems. The latest with a growing following is Duncan Falconer. It seems we prefer to read books by those who have been there and done it rather than the efforts of career novelists who just make it up, even if they do have experienced advisers.
I have to agree with Trident and Yanito that it is unfair to blame any individual for the B20 fiasco, it is an alarming, inexplicable systematic failure just like the SA80s which malfunction, aircraft contracts which end up costing several times the original buget and the end product is faulty, and all of the equipment shortages we now all know so well. I have just read the Preface to 'The Sixteen' by John Urwin, he reckons that the SAS are a bunch of elitist incompetents, so there you go!
Thanks for the 17 years mate.
>>By camban (Thursday, 15 Jul 2004 15:54)
Kissing his backside on a hot sweaty day ???? Hmmm interesting idea and mental picture .. but no! Using a towel to wipe his backside before kissing it, then sell the towel ( with sweat, autograph and a picture to prove it ) on the internet !! Openings bid, anyone ? *ewg*
Thank you for the idea Geo !! ;-)
>>By Ninjawoman (Thursday, 15 Jul 2004 16:53)
Thanks for the replies guys,
I know it sounds like I am only blaming AM in my first post, I could have written loads about my thoughts on the subject. Why I chose him was, a: because this board is about him and b: he was the patrol commander. I didn't know about the lack of vehicles, but It does seem a bit odd that out of three squadrons in theater at the time, his was the only patrol to dip out on the 110's, and personnally I would still have gone in a dinky (smaller cam net to put up (the bastards snag on everything) and essentially i'm a lazy twat who doesn't like yomping miles and miles).
I too have worked in a squadron where the supplies are few and far between and the OC, troop commander and/or SSM are total oxygen theives, so I do appreciate that all wasn't peachy and perfect for the patrols.
What does grip my shit though is that some of these ex SAS guys whom are writing their accounts and earning fortunes seem to be embelishing their stories a wee tad and seem to come to believe the hype about themselves.
I do know a couple of SAS blokes and guys whom have tried and failed selection (utmost respect to them) although I havent seen them since I beacame a civvy, and they are definetely not elitist incompetents. far from it, who is this Unwin fella anyway ( I live abroad so I'm out of touch with the news etc etc.) but the title of his book would suggest MI6 maybe !! In that case he is just a jumped up student tosser!!
(No offence to students but some of us ex-squaddies have realised, finally, that there is a definate heirarchy in the food chain, from bottom to top: - student tossers
Civvy wankers
squaddie knobs
Ex-soldiers of her Majestys Armed Forces (RAF and Navy excluded of course)
Only joking !!!!!)
I have the utmost respect for the SAS, but the true heroes (Still living that is) have written books with humility and not just jazzed up the warry bits (read Lofty Larges book).
Like I said though AM is a bloody good writer and I shall continue to enjoy his books.
>>By geo (Friday, 16 Jul 2004 04:00)
PS. You can make improvised claymores from cardboard, ice cream tubs and nuts and bolts, oh and PE4 obviously. Silenced pistols in that situation would have been as much use as indicators on a submarine. Only one dinky well I'll admit that does colour things a little i'd have taken bloody unimogs to avoid walking, but then again they arent exactly tactical vehicles. but the name of the game is 'improvise overcome and adapt' thats what they taught me when I was going through basic training.
PPS camban, you're welcome
>>By geo (Friday, 16 Jul 2004 05:33)
Thanx for sharing Geo, welcome here
Am reading Lofti Large at the moment btw - bought it after seeing him in a tv-docu, he does seem to be a remarkable person.
About "not just jazzed up the warry bits", this may have to do with publishers wanting to sell books too and it seems to work since those are the most selling, whether anyone thinks it's fair or not is irrelevant. (I'm sorry if that may seem defending towards AM, I can't help myself ;o))
>>By Lynn (Friday, 16 Jul 2004 09:40)
re:geo.
we didn't even use cardboard or icecream boxes. we just strapped nuts, spikes, bolts on top of 2 p.e. pieces and tied it all together with black duct tape and taped them to a tree nearby. worked pretty nicely. we had black plastic bags scattered around the place, and balloons. even at over a hundred yards, they got pretty well beaten up.
other nice makeshift mines are putting p.e. on the back of the railings that you see on highways. just sit and wait for that apc to come along, and bob's your uncle. (called kylkimiina in finnish)
or tying a mortar shell from a light mortar (81 mm) to a tree, and apting the detonator with a thin metal wire at ankle height. add camouflage, and wait.
>>By trident (Friday, 16 Jul 2004 11:04)
Geo, John Urwin is a guy who reckons this outfit 'The Sixteen' was harder, more secretive, and more deadly than the SAS. He says he was selected for the unit, rather than going for selection on his own initiative. I've started reading it now and would like another opinion on it. See the reviews on Amazon. Trouble is, it's a bit pricey.
>>By camban (Friday, 16 Jul 2004 15:57)
Hi, interesting subject is the shadowy one and no way of knowing what he looks like. Pity there are no picture of Mr McNab. Does any one know him on a personal basis? Sorry if that sounds awfully rude for a new comer to ask. Just curious that's all.
>>By flygirl (Friday, 16 Jul 2004 20:51)
~Using a towel to wipe his backside before kissing it, then sell the towel ( with sweat, autograph and a picture to prove it ) on the internet !!~
A picture of what exactly? and whos going to take the picture? If its a picture of the towel how would you prove it had sweat on it? and what type of pen would show up on a towel? And what colour towel? So many questions ninjawomen, you best get started lol
What date is his new book coming out? And what is it called?
>>By christina (Friday, 16 Jul 2004 22:02)
Wow you have been away.. and to return with so many burning questions!! To my shame I can only reply the last one.. November 4 and it will be named "Deep Black"
And for the rest of your list, I will wing it !!
>>By Ninjawoman (Friday, 16 Jul 2004 22:08)
Thnx i shall pre order it now!
Good because i didnt actually want any of those questions answered ;)
If anyone likes his books theres a new Nelson Demille book coming soon if you dont allready know.....Its called Night Fall, and is out in december in the UK.
>>By christina (Friday, 16 Jul 2004 22:33)
WOW Christina, What news about Demille, just think if you had read the Demille page first like the others. If you'll wait just a day or two more I'll give you a comprehensive book report. Ok, Andy would be proud
>>By DTO (Friday, 16 Jul 2004 23:47)
Credit to Bo as the original source for the www.sasrogues link....
Hidden amongst the site's various embedded links, there's a 7-second surprise btwn 1:07 and 1:14!
www.sasrogues.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/SASCQBDemo01.rm
Amazing infil and exfil technique... very grey! ;o)
>>By am-i-binned (Saturday, 17 Jul 2004 11:25)
camban I will check this '16' book out I think, and Lynn don't apologise for defending AM, freedom of speech and thought is the whole reason why the British Army and the SAS exist.
You could have called me a total tosser for criticising AM and that would have been fine by me, I now live in the Czech republic and some of the tales i've heard about life and oppression under a communist regime makes me feel as though I have lead a very lucky existence.
I
>>By geo (Saturday, 17 Jul 2004 14:17)
Great AIB, recognise that voice everywhere – now fingers crossed it doesn’t disappear ;o)
Welcome back Trident, Christina and DTO, nice to see you back here :o)
Eeerr.. Tri? That was actually military related, not just fun and play right? ;o)
Hello Flygirl, can’t help you, what I know is on these pages
Geo: “Freedom is not merely the opportunity to do as one pleases; neither is it merely the opportunity to choose between set alternatives. Freedom is, first of all, the chance to formulate the available choices, to argue over them -- and then, the opportunity to choose.” (C. Wright Mills) – Should be the board main quote ;o)
>>By Lynn (Saturday, 17 Jul 2004 15:54)
Some of you may remember the plight of Dean Francis??? He hasn't given up and is still working hard (In more ways than one!). The BBC have shown an interest in a screenplay he produced for them about an up and coming boxer with serious emotional problems, and he is currently re-writing Fair Target. I know he sent some of you a draft and some would have read work on his web-site. He is working oversees at the moment but I am very close to Dean and he asked me to publish the very raw synopsis of the re-write. He hopes the few of you that kept in touch haven't forgot him and he promises his work will see the bookshelves one day!!! As mentioned it is a raw synopsis, but the IRA theme was never going to work. Nancy is gone to but mat return later!
"
Mark Makken is blackmailed into assassinating a Muslim Cleric visiting London on official business as a guest of the Lord Mayor of London. Seconds before the assassination is due to take place, a huge explosion rips through the building killing the Mayor and six other MP’s, injuring dozens including cleric.
Makken is blamed for the atrocity and becomes one of Scotland Yards most wanted men. The cleric puts a bounty on Makken’s head and declares a Jihad, targeting his English hosts. A terrorist attack sends the country into chaos, but while on the run Mark Makken discovers an even bigger attack is planned and must risk his own liberty in an attempt to save the lives of thousands.
With the Police, Security Services and a large fanatical group hunting him down, Makken has just one friend he can trust. Between them they must track down the real terrorists, bring them to justice and clear his name. Is there an agreement between Al-Queda and the British government? Was there a deal pre-Iraq War II that would blow the Anglo-American relationship apart if it were revealed?"
AnnaTom
>>By Annatom2 (Saturday, 17 Jul 2004 16:38)
Sounds good Annatom2 , thanks for the info!
>>By Ninjawoman (Saturday, 17 Jul 2004 16:56)
Thank you, AnnaTom! (...and thank you, Dean...)
Very much appreciated!
>>By am-i-binned (Saturday, 17 Jul 2004 17:07)
What can I add to that? Great hearing all is well, keep in touch !
>>By Lynn (Saturday, 17 Jul 2004 17:59)
Shifting gears a bit:
www.af.mil/stories/story.asp?storyID=123007761
Shades of IA, with AM telling what he did in prep for the E&E phase of Selection:
"A week before that, George and I had also had put out caches of food all around south Wales. We had no idea of exactly where we would be going to go, but made an educated guess. For most of the weekend we were running around buying cans of tuna and hiding them at prominent points. Tesco's made a fortune out of us."
Hmmm.... an F Troop treasure hunt? -- sans GPS?
Wonder what happens to a buried can of tuna after 20 years.
(By the way, as I typed in that paragraph, I had to laugh. Notice the grammar problems? To me, these are the telltales that quash all the ghostwriting theories.)
>>By am-i-binned (Sunday, 18 Jul 2004 16:32)
Hehehe, there is something called High-tech Trackers AIB:
"Using ARGOS, scientists now routinely track endangered and threatened animals over long distances, day and night, over land, air and sea, and process and transmit the information via the Internet.
Tagging wild animals is still quite a challenge for scientist. But once your critters are tagged, "you can wake up on a Sunday morning, have a cup of coffee, check your email and find out where your Bluefin tuna was"
Maybe it works with bar codes of canned tuna as well ;o)
>>By Lynn (Sunday, 18 Jul 2004 22:49)
Geo, and everyone else, I am soo embarrassed! that book, the 16, that I have been blethering on about, it is complete rubbish! I am annoyed that a schoolboy fantasy like this can be passed off as factual when it is plainly drivel! I want my money back!
Back to good stuff, I have just read Tornado Down which is the account of the RAF aircrew shot down in GW1 and imprisoned and mistreated with AM, it is very similar to B20 but from another perspective. Also read the story of the Navy Harrier pilot who was helped to safety by the SAS guys stuck in Goradze in the Balkans war. It is also the obverse of the same story related by one of the SAS writers in his book, but can't recall which one, will check if anyone is interested, it's called No Escape Zone
>>By camban (Monday, 19 Jul 2004 12:16)
Passing through and keeping an eye on you lot!!
*dashes unseen round the corner, hugging the wall - like a panther in the night or a McNab during the evening, I scarper unseen into the undergrowth where I bang my knee on a half uncovered tin of half buried tuna...sort of thing*
>>By Pomplemous (Tuesday, 20 Jul 2004 17:58)
Welcome to the kill house Pomplemouse! If you bring a fork and some stale bread, sit and enjoy your ... umm .. green tuna/peneceline/cure for a running nose !!
Enjoy !
Btw, can you scarper a bit more silent next time? It was interfering with my down time ;-)
>>By Ninjawoman (Tuesday, 20 Jul 2004 22:12)
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