Andy Mcnab
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I don't think that it had anything to do with his wife.
it is more to do with the way the world is shaping itself and the times we live in, and the characters experiences are starting to bring him down and shape him in a purely violent way as opposed to it just being a job.
>>By Nemesis2842004 (Sunday, 18 Apr 2004 17:12)
i've read bravo two zero, are the other books like that, what do they feature
>>By Ali likes cheese (Sunday, 18 Apr 2004 18:27)
Hi again, Nemesis...
You must have an excellent library! (said while trying hard not to turn green with envy) And thanks for the recommendation on Heart of a Soldier, will do. May I ask how long you've been into these types of books to have read so many? Also, have you read the Soldier A, B, C series as well? (Asking because I have several but they keep getting shuffled down in priority... preempted by all the other books being recommended here.)
Welcome, Ali likes cheese...
Nice to meet you. B20 is one of two bios AM wrote -- his other, Immediate Action, is actually the prequel to B20. AM's other books are fiction, but the part most of us enjoy as we read his fiction is that we recognize flashes of AM's personal bio experiences woven into the character Nick Stone and incidents occuring in the stories. General concensus here is that AM is enjoyed best when read in publication order: B20, Immediate Action, Remote Control, Crisis Four, Firewall, Last Light, Liberation Day, Dark Winter, and (scheduled for Nov 2004) Deep Black. You have some great reading ahead of you! What? Biased? Who me? Yepper!!!! :o)
>>By am-i-binned (Sunday, 18 Apr 2004 20:13)
hmmm... actually, I guess I should have said: Oh, absolutely!!!! ;o)
>>By am-i-binned (Sunday, 18 Apr 2004 20:15)
Hi am-i-binned
like the name by the way, i've been reading this type of book for about 10 years. I started because when i left school i wanted to join the army and these books appealed to me so i started reading them, then joined the army and have kept reading them(one day i might eventually have the guts to attempt selection, but the failure would end my career). the soldier A series i have read a lot of them but still remain undecided, you get good and bad, but there are a lot of mistakes as far as authenticity goes and that irritates me slighty but i have enjoyed a few. if you have read the one set in northern ireland i think you might make a few similaritys with CRs the watchman.
>>By Nemesis2842004 (Sunday, 18 Apr 2004 21:29)
Nemesis2842004. You say " I still can't forgive CR for the way he showed some of the his fellow patrol members in such a poor light."
Now I got to ask why that is stuck in your gullet when it in't stuck in mine. Happen all them SF books you read makes you more expert than those of us who been there done that and don't sleep too well sometimes.
Lynn, I left the cling-film humour to imagination! Reckon it crossed your mind tho.
>>By readit (Sunday, 18 Apr 2004 21:44)
First off, i agree with Nemesis on the CR comment about putting a team member in poor light. I read both B20 and CR , The one who got away" and enjoyed them both.... almost.
In the last chapter CR started ( again, this is me) to wine like a baby. "Why isn't he looking at me? Is his conscience playing up?" came over to me as "Mummy! He stepped on my sandcastle and dropped my icecream." To be honest that has kept me a bit off from reading CR. Did read 'The Kremlin device ' but ( again) to my idea and taste, it lacked something. Yes it had S E X in it but maybe i am spoiled with Nick's clumsy nature in relationships. But have no hatemail coming my way, i bought a CR book on Amazon for the huge amount of 0.01 pound !! Will give him another go.
Recently i have read a book from a SBS man, Don Camsell's "Black Water" and found it informative but don't expect a Andy clone- Thank goodness, he is unique !!
Ninajwoman, who is thinking about NS and a good rump in the hay .. nah ... or ????
>>By Ninjawoman (Sunday, 18 Apr 2004 22:10)
my point is readit, that they were dead why tarnish their memories. How do you think their familys felt?. And i'm a soldier (not sf) but i've been to war surved in a lot of sh*t hole countrys and seen a lot of stuff i didn't want to, but i would never disrespect the dead, especially if they served by my side in a pretty hairy situation. And that is just muy opinion that is what this whole forum is about i believe so there you go you're questioned answered.
>>By Nemesis2842004 (Sunday, 18 Apr 2004 22:16)
Nemesis. Absolutely correct my son. It were a grave mistake Ryan's writing down what were said on B20 mission. Half a story behind the whole story in't the whole picture tho is it? Ninja hit the nail hard as well. Ryan came over as whining kid. He were at the time a bit of a naive compared with rest of experienced in squad. What Ryan said about dead men were typical of impressionable junior egged on and revelling senior feedback. Damned if I can recall Mcnab standing up in defense of dead's honour at time. Can you?.
Don't matter how you read B20 and TOTGA Ryan were the novice who walked out of combat zone. That's what SFO training prepares us for when all else fails. And when you stops to think it through with a little common sense. What SFOs in their right minds would highjack a taxi and speed along a main highway to the border when they know the enemy is hunting them down? In coms gear you know you is as good as piss proud among civilians and keeping clear of settlements and main highways is common sense.
Yeah B20 were in Iraq on covert and should a stayed covert on parallel course with highway. Would have thought bad consequences of undercover SFOs caught by PIRA roadblocks in NI had taught them lesson enough. It weren't as if they were Arab savvy or linguistically Arab chatty wearing Arab cam.
Ryan's escape is what got well stuck in Mcnab's gullet and lead man saw the best way to capitalise on Ryan's mistake of gobbing off were to stay silent on what were or weren't said during crisis point of B20 mission. What were said after at debrief weren't for public consumption excepting what Mcnab wanted to say in B20 book. As it happened Ryan and Mcnab's accounts differed and it were Ryan who copped flak for every thing that were said about dead men from day 1 of publication TOTGA. Ryan's eventual admittance to illwritten comments did him a power of good in the end. Newer editions of TOTGA carried what were marked as official apology and won old friends back on side for Ryan.
The blooded Ryan hatchet were suddenly buried and knives started vying for Mcnab's blood. Where I come from that figures for SOP when murk clears to all round visibility. Coburn on the other hand as one of the two who were captured admits the fuck up mission overshadows any good work that all of the B20 men participated in elsewhere. That is the statement of a true man of honour. I'll stand by Ryan as a hero of the hour for walking out of Iraq. As for Mcnab, his ordeal in the Iraqi prison as far as Coburn is concerned was grossly exagerated. On that count Mcnab slips lower on the B20 hero scale.
>>By readit (Monday, 19 Apr 2004 18:15)
Hi haven’t been online much lately but found this on Amazon http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/
ASIN/0593050282/qid=1082393434/
sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_3_7/026-2443316-6498841
Due for release on November 4th and it's going to be called Deep Black, sorry if this has already been posted.
>>By Psicosis (Monday, 19 Apr 2004 19:02)
Yes, it has Psicosis.
But you've away for so long that you're automatically forgiven. ;)
>>By ortlieb (Monday, 19 Apr 2004 19:09)
As I haven't read colburns account yet i can't comment but agree that the statement suggests a man of honour, and I do not take anything away from Chris Ryan for the awesome stamina he showed in walking out of Iraq. I just prefer the way Mcnab writes and I made my mind up that for me he was the more favourable of the 2.
I also read Gaz hunters book shooting gallery and in that he had a lot of faith in the whole B20 patrol and from his point of view, the lack of supplies they encountered when about to deploy could have been resolved if he was there ( as he was b sqn commander at the time, but was in colombia in a training update role).
And AM made decisions that to me were foolish, not taking vehicles for instance! I can see how he could have interpreted the ground to be unforgiving for vehicle tasks, but at the end of the day thats what the regiment was founded on, shoot and scoot, disrupt ,observe and destroy. This was down to the standard of the maps and ground appreciation is an essential skill to a soldier (let alone a commander) and with the maps they had it must have been hard especially with a fast ball, having now been to iraq i can understand the difficulty the patrol must have encountered especially on the map reading side with or without gps (it's hard).
I have no doubt that all involved made mistakes at some point and that the whole mission may have been the worse op they had been on in their career but it was a doomed mission from the start nothing went the way it should have and they were let down on all sides, and as far as the exageration was concerned i think the publishers had something to do with it, as they are interested in the money and nothing more, if the truth was told from the start and embelishments were not made i don't think B20 would have been published.
The taxi and driving down a main msr was also a mistake, why would you risk capture and possible death by driving down one of the main military supply routes, there is bound to be a check point sooner or later. possibly the loss of vince and the biting cold but they were trained operators and should have really attacked a lone 4x4 vehicle or something similar allowing desert travel across all terrain, but then there was also the euphrates in the way, so how do they cross well working up and down the bank to find a possible thin point or boat, there are so many different things they could of should of done that it can only be made on the ground, so was they right or wrong? both in my opinion because i don't know, I wasn't there and can only assume while reading the book in the comfort of home what i would have done, i've made mistakes in training and ops but i was never in situation where i was so alone as the B20 patrol and help was always close to hand.
Readit I respect your comments and agree with most so we'll try and keep the banter going.
have a good one!
>>By Nemesis2842004 (Monday, 19 Apr 2004 19:54)
Hi again Nem,
Re: “I just prefer the way Mcnab writes”
You are with a lot of like-minded people here then :o) Though I do enjoy CR’s books too (except for the sex) – I also prefer McNab’s writing style. Can you say what it is that you like about AM’s style? For ‘us’ civilians it’s the ‘reality factor’ mostly – it’s a good read to see how jobs are done. Since you are army too – and must already have more knowledge about army related stuff maybe it’s something else for you?
Since you have not read Coburn yet, he did talk about not taking vehicles, would you get back to this after you’ve read what he is saying about it? I’m curious about it since B20 has for a large part being blamed for not taking vehicles and I’d like to know what you think of Coburns explanation :o)
Re: “as far as the exaggeration was concerned i think the publishers had something to do with it, as they are interested in the money and nothing more, if the truth was told from the start and embellishments were not made i don't think B20 would have been published”
First I think that you may be right, making especially that part more ‘attractive’ to the reader’s, adding some drama is quite common. However, with hindsight, the doubts being created about that part makes you wonder about the rest. And that is a pity, since the story is amazing enough. Next I’d like to say that it may even be irrelevant how bad it really was, since what AM thought was the worst, must have been really true: not knowing what would happen to him, the uncertainty and fear no doubt, and not knowing what had happened to the others.
So…… since we’ve been speculating a bit already – any ideas what Deep Black might be about?
“The hero is not fed on sweets, Daily his own heart he eats; Chambers of the great are jails, And head-winds right for royal sail“
(Ralph Waldo Emerson)
>>By Lynn (Monday, 19 Apr 2004 23:42)
Hi Y'all,
Normal SOPs are in effect. (If you want the full text, flork me for it)
-----
Sunday Times (London) April 18, 2004
"SAS men called up for special op on reality TV"
THE BBC is upping the stakes in the reality TV ratings war by recruiting former SAS soldiers to spearhead humanitarian operations in the world's trouble spots....
<snip>
Andy McNab, whose account of SAS operations during the first Gulf war, Bravo Two Zero, became an international bestseller, said: "I don't think they're going to be near real trouble. Nobody is going to put a show on television from a really dangerous area. It will have to be contrived and safe. They are not going to be going into the Panjshir valley (in Afghanistan)."
<snip>
A BBC source said that it had considered the dangers involved but had decided that the programme could go ahead: "We have got BBC news reporters going to war zones and we have stringent safety and insurance rules in place for them. Why can't we make an entertainment show?"
>>By Majorette (Tuesday, 20 Apr 2004 00:22)
after lurking for a while, i have to comment. Readit is dead right, McNab was very unprofessional and the way he acted showed the terror he felt. I was seconded to Hereford for different ops from 1980 onwards and worked with all the guys you have mentioned here. Ryan was the better man, in every aspect. McNab was a chancer, he didn't prepare and hoped to get through. It didn't work, he jeopodised his men and his mission, Sean Bean he aint!! I have been a Rupert for many, many years, and have a few to go. The best thing I can say is that the Regiment learnt a lot from McN's foolhardyness and stupidity. He has no Kudos in Hereford, with the old and bold or the new guys. They see him for what he is, many briefings start with the words, "this is what M**** did, now we will tell you what a real soldier would have done."
and for the groupies who ask, yes I have read all the SF books, not out of choice, I get paid to read his innane drivel,
He is persona non grata I'm amazed so many of you think he is a hero. He will die a rich but very miserable man, he knows he is a fraud, he has admitted as much to those of us who have to deal with him on a professional level as an "author" Maybe I will contact the Leech Lucas and make my fortune, but I doubt it, I want to face my Maker with a clean and clear conscience and impress her with my lack of avarice and self promotion. Still my work would be a lot less interesting if I didn't have to deal with McN, I would be doing a real soldiers job, instead of cleaning up the s**t he leaves behind.
Rant over, time to do some real work.
enjoy the books, but remember, they are written by ghostwriters, McN proofreads them, and they dont portray the real McN in anyway shape or form.
>>By barkingbob (Tuesday, 20 Apr 2004 04:21)
And all that from a guy who says 'he's running around like a headless chicken'
Anyone seen my broom??? Oh oops I'm sitting on it.
>>By Lynn (Tuesday, 20 Apr 2004 09:16)
barkingbob:
Very interesting to hear your viewpoint.
One thing that struck me during my service within the more "operative" units in the Norwegian Army, is that one particular person (or unit for that matter) can to you seem totally inept and unprofessional. Yet, to outsiders that person/unit can appear as total pro's.
I think for those of us with a military background, we're able to see through the bullshit mist & fog that otherwise impresses the hell out of those with no military experience whatsoever.
I believe the SAS is such a professional SF-unit that even the worst SAS-operator would seem like a pro to the untrained/unexperienced eye. I'm not SF myself, so therefore I must admit that I've perhaps been somewhat blinded my SAS-authors apparant super-professionalism.
Still, my viewpoints are mostly based from the books I read, so - as you say - they don't provide the "true" image of a certain person (in this case, it was McNab).
I've always felt that Ryan has been the most "stick to the SOP and keep it professional"-minded comparing him with McNab, but as readit says: he was at the same time the youngest and the more "brat-like" of all the men in the patrol.
Do you know of the other "famous" authors as well... ? Does the books they've written also suffer from the fact that they don't portray people/events in an accurate light? (Cameron Spence for instance).
>>By ortlieb (Tuesday, 20 Apr 2004 11:10)
LOL bb.... same old, same old. Yadda, yadda, yadda.
Ortie, you are a nice polite gentleman. Good for you! ;-)
>>By Dare (Tuesday, 20 Apr 2004 14:35)
Hi, i'm new here but have been reading up on some of the 160 pages of discussion and have been fascinated by some of the posts, esp Barkingbob. What's all this about ghost writers? and why do you have such strong opinions about AM when as you say 'my viewpoints are mostly based from the books I read', yet surely who knows what happened apart from the men who were actually involved in the B20 mission. This guy (who I can't remember the name of right now) who attempted to show AM's books up as exaggerated was obviously out to make money himself, so why is his seen as the truth. He would hardly have sold many books if he said 'oh yeah, it's all true' Let's not forget that all of McNab's books are screened by the Ministry Of Defence due to the content. Would they allow him to include information in a true story that was untrue?
I'm open minded but just want to know why people are so sure that he is a fake?
>>By Swein Forkbeard (Tuesday, 20 Apr 2004 15:29)
Dare:
With all the female-claws around here, I wouldn't dare any lesser behaviour. LOL ! :))
>>By ortlieb (Tuesday, 20 Apr 2004 15:32)
I think you're having me and barkingbob confused Swein about viewpoints being based on the books.....
>>By ortlieb (Tuesday, 20 Apr 2004 15:48)
Word for word with you Ortlieb.
Swein dear fellow 160 pages and you missed 159 memo on ghost writers.
Dare's Yadda Yadda Yadda fits bill nicely on S Forkbeard's Asher hit. Fact is forkbeard Asher were publishing books before Mcnab learnt how to read 'em.
>>By readit (Tuesday, 20 Apr 2004 16:17)
Is this deja vu? Please tell me girls I am not losing it. I could swear I read this in lurk mode a year ago.
Were it forkbeard's forbears said this? " Let's not forget that all of McNab's books are screened by the Ministry Of Defence due to the content. Would they allow him to include information in a true story that was untrue?
Hey, the MoD will let through any crap so long as it in't true. Get near the nitty gritty of military bins and that's when MoD shoves D notices under appropriate noses.Thing were with Mcnab et al MoD weren't in a position to deny their existance as serving SFOs. The media were on the ball when Mcnab and Coburn were released from Iraq and Ryan were already a boy hero.
>>By readit (Tuesday, 20 Apr 2004 16:30)
I think Ortlieb brought up an excellent point. For us non-military folks, guys like Andy McNab seem almost superhuman. But those in-the-know aren't so easily impressed. I can understand that. It would piss me off, too, if somebody in my field got tons of attention even though I knew them to be less professional than me. On the other hand, if that same person was somehow responsible for making me look more favorable through association, then I might forgive them their love of the spotlight.
The way I look at it, Andy McNab is kinda like the Carl Sagan of Special Forces. Yes, there were books about this stuff long before he came around, but he was pivotal in bringing it to the layperson. And by doing that, I think he helped tons of people like myself find a deeper appreciation for ALL who serve in uniform.
For that, I'm grateful to the man. Because of him, I've discovered a whole new world of books, met some really awesome people, and made several excellent friends. Am I starstruck with the man? I don't think so. Just re-read some of the piss-taking posts we've seen here on Gnooks; we joke about him as much as we love reading his books. And even though most of us here read McNab first, very few of us are "monogamous" to him. I think it's an accurate statement to say that McNab's books serve as a springboard" of sorts, a primer before we start exploring the other fine SF writers.
Incidentally, Carl Sagan was also disliked by his colleagues. Many felt he spent too much time marketing himself and not enough time conducting good science. Be that as it may, he accomplished what no other astronomer had done up to that point- he made astronomy accessible to the general public, raising awareness and inspiring an entire generation of young astronomers. At the very least, I think McNab is on his way to doing the same thing for Special Forces. But that's just my lone opinion. And there are probably billions and billions of them out there...
>>By Majorette (Tuesday, 20 Apr 2004 17:19)
Does Andy have a fan club or a website I can write to? Any help is appreciated!
>>By SweetC (Tuesday, 20 Apr 2004 18:41)
Barking bob:
Whatever the circumstances of the patrol or in whatever light you see each soldier, it doesn't matter the books are made for a wide audience and most of the people who read them do it for pleasure. And I don't see how you can criticise them for making money out of books which in no way jeopardized serving sas/sbs soldiers. why do you think there is such a high percentage currently leaving H, could it be to do with money and the fact that US SF are getting most of the ops? possibly but my point is even the guys that are serving now are just pissed off with 2 things about mc'nab and Ryan and that is,they let the regiment down by taking some of the mystery away and the fact that they made a lot of money out of it. What other options did they have go on the circuit or possibly merc work, I know if I had the oportunity I would have gone the same route but maybe in not such a disrespective way.
>>By Nemesis2842004 (Tuesday, 20 Apr 2004 18:51)
Nem: "And I don't see how you can criticise them"
If McNab would wipe his *ss with his wrong hand they'd be happy to inform you
>>By Lynn (Tuesday, 20 Apr 2004 19:29)
Readit : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1826652.stm
>>By borisette (Tuesday, 20 Apr 2004 19:42)
What other options did they have go on the circuit or possibly merc work, I know if I had the oportunity I would have gone the same route but maybe in not such a disrespective way
The ex-Regiment guys have more options open to them when they leave, they could go into any business they wanted. I know one who drove a bus in Hereford for a while, eventually drunk himself out of the job...., they want to be in the limelight, they have had groupies of all shapes, sizes and sexes, including Mme Thatcher, not many are man enough to quietly slip away and do something worthwhile, I know a few, one ex B squadron guy has worked in refugee camps as a medic for 15 years, he would never want to be recognised as an "ex" anything. He is a real hero.
Delta guys dont go running to agents, they get on with their lives, many go back to very ordinary civvie jobs, many are on the circuit, I know 2 who teach high school in the US, one teaching physics and one teaching they are not unusual.
It depends how these guys feel in their own skin, as a lady called Devonwren has expressed in not such terms, many are screwed up. They need constant attention, to be assured they are still, the top dog. I have worked with many who are about to leave Hereford, after reaching 40, alot dont want to go.
McN blazed a trail, an ugly trail, but still a trail many wanted to follow, usually to their detriment.
Lynn, you seemed concerned that someone like me who runs around like a headless chicken would be able to waste time on this board? It is my little diversion, I enjoy electric for 6 hours a day, and spend 3 hours on the Net, keeping in touch with family and friends,watching and listening to the BBC and as I can type at over 100wpm, i get a lot done.
Thanks for asking!!!
>>By barkingbob (Tuesday, 20 Apr 2004 20:22)
barking bob:
I agree with you completely, but I don't have any idea what the x factor is but even in non sf military organisations a lot of people have problems adjusting to civvy street and have to find an avenue that is as close to the military as possible security,merc and so on. You mention the way USSF adapt more quickly, again this x factor seems to affect the British military more than any other force that i have knowledge of, and judging by the percentage of ex military that are homeless I think this identifies that it may be a regional problem. It mainly affects career soldiers that have come from teeth arms, and a lot of soldiers around the warrant officer level.
these are just a few things that in my opinion that may go some way of finding a medium between the rights and wrongs, or it could be like you correctly point out a kind of popstar syndrome.
anyway on my way out so catch ya later
>>By Nemesis2842004 (Tuesday, 20 Apr 2004 20:49)
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