Andy Mcnab
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"he is still hated by most of the old and bold"
With millions of books sold, a wallet to match it, and a messageboard 162 pages full of admirers - if I ever get the chance I'll ask him what he cares about the old and bold.
>>By Lynn (Monday, 26 Apr 2004 14:56)
Ah, make that 163 pages
>>By Lynn (Monday, 26 Apr 2004 14:56)
Lynn:
Money & fame..... Kind of shallow values, don't you think?
>>By ortlieb (Monday, 26 Apr 2004 15:11)
for those interested SAS versus SBS.
I've posted an article on the Duncan Falconer board.
>>By borisette (Monday, 26 Apr 2004 15:13)
Ortie, as shallow as the old and bold. The love and health he won't get from either, he'll find that from his family, close friends and God (or luck, whatever you believe)
>>By Lynn (Monday, 26 Apr 2004 15:39)
Hmm.... I think there are several factors that comeng into play here:
1. Is the Regiment what it used to be?
2. If not - has the "lifting of blanket" factor provided with AM, CR's et al's publications anything to do with it?
3. Is AM a dickhead for chosing fame & money over breaking the internal rules of "keeping Regimental stuff within the Regiment"?
Are there more factors to be considered to be put into the equasion?
That's I'm sure of......
>>By ortlieb (Monday, 26 Apr 2004 16:41)
Pardon my dyclecksia... ;)
>>By ortlieb (Monday, 26 Apr 2004 16:45)
nice post ortlieb, lets see what comes of it?
>>By Nemesis2842004 (Monday, 26 Apr 2004 21:17)
borisette: did you right that post about walter mittys or was it ghost written lmao, it was almost poetic. more please
>>By Nemesis2842004 (Monday, 26 Apr 2004 21:23)
also if any of you would like to read an accurate account of the sas and how they fare today i suggest you read "ultimate risk : SAS contact al qaeda" by mark nichol. he was born in hereford being a pads brat as his father was in the regiment for 22 years and has a college education and also writes for the mirror and news of the world and specialises in military writing so this is a true account that is verified and will make a lot of you realise no matter what any of the authours have done they are still very capable soldiers.
>>By Nemesis2842004 (Monday, 26 Apr 2004 21:32)
just one more thing due to the fact i'm very drunk would someone like to ghost write my posts please, cause i've just read them and confused myself lol
>>By Nemesis2842004 (Monday, 26 Apr 2004 21:45)
Well, let us backtrack for a minute.....
As you all might recall, it was DLB (Sir Peter de la Billiere), not AM who first blew the whistle on the Bravo Two Zero op in his autobiography Storm Command (especially mentioning Chris Ryan "personally making Regimental history" as he E&E'd back to the Syrian border).
It has been stated as fact that AM was approached by senior staff (or similar?) to give his version of the events.
AM's lack of former education is well known, so he was told to "tell the story in his own words", and they'd work out the rest. (Hehe... it obviously DID work out quite well, as he now can look back at 2 non-fictionals and soon 7 fictional books).
Anyway....he further says that the ones who requested the book - and himself in particular - only expected military personell and a few civvies here and there to find the book any interesting; at best.
Hmm... wait a minute.... Why go through all that trouble if they didn't expect a sale in the first place? And who was the intended audience, if not mainstream readers? If the answer is "for educational purposes for military personell", then I seriously doubt that the B20-memoirs would've been published in regular book-format. Both AM and CR held briefings for other units after their ordeal in Iraq, so I really don't think that's the answer.
How did DLB's mentioning of Bravo Two Zero go through the MOD so easily? Why did he feel the need to mention it all?
For recruiting purposes?
Even though there clearly are those still inside (and/or now outside) the Regiment who feels that AM has stabbed them all in the back, it seems to me that AM wasn't the arcitect.
Given AM's poor educational level, I find it very unlikely that he all of a sudden would feel the strong urge to sit down a write himself a book..... (hence: him being approached).
But I digress....... Someone else should do the thinking. My head hurts.....
Oh, just come to think of it: How did DLB come to think of mentioning CR but that particular name? Was it on his whim to put a name down, or did he check with Ryan on beforehand? I would imagine it would suck a bit for CR to have your "stage-name" handed to you because someone decided to describe you in that certain way?
And if CR was notified of DLB's plans to include his E&E in Storm Command, it surely wouldn't come as a great shock that TOTGA came about in 1995 (3 years after Storm Command, 1 year after B20). It seems to me that the "creation" of SAS squaddie authors started pretty early on - not very long after the Gulf conflict.
Perhaps the all the fuck-ups and logistical mishaps that ensued the Regiment's deployment to Iraq in '91 "inspired" alot of people to "stick it to the man"...... ?
I dunno... as I said: someone else should probably do the thinking around here. I can now smell burnt microchips....
>>By ortlieb (Monday, 26 Apr 2004 22:07)
And then there's the matter of the MOD being only too keen to make it appear the failure of the mission B20 was to blame on certain
member(s) of the team.
>>By Lynn (Monday, 26 Apr 2004 22:41)
Ortie, you bring up some excellent points (and questions).
It would make sense to me that those who approached AM to write his B20 memoir had an ulterior motive -- to fluff the regiment's feathers, perhaps? To put a human face on a famous operation gone wrong (thereby absolving The Powers That Be of their own failings, at least in the public eye)? Or maybe it was some kind of cruel joke -- hey, let's get the Southie f*ck-up to "write," ha ha -- that back fired?
Ortie, methinks you could use some asprin and an ice pack for your head. When you're done with it, pass it along to Nemesis, will ya?
>>By Jiffer (Monday, 26 Apr 2004 22:56)
A while since I last posted, and brain post (god awful flu) is just beginnng to come down to earth on operation mode.
Re Sir Peter (Billy Gruff) de la Billierre who first put pen to paper...
He also took dinner with AM, (middle billy gruff) assume CR too (little billy gruff) or how else could their alias' have turned out so pit pat, and who wouldn't have wished tobe a fly on the wall or bug in framework...All were irked one way or another with outcome of their return to Hereford post GW1 - even Sir Peter Billy Gruff got a clip around the ears from the MoD...I did post relevant (buddy bit) page 54, probably prior and more later...
Re McNab "he was approached" quantified as, I believe, two men, and given the military rank of one of the two it is easy to see how that would be construed sufficient backup to AM's own grievance at the time and, sufficient incentive to run the gauntlet with a book...
There are always those you think are your friends in the background who say "Go on, do it..I would if I had the chance" but they rarely do, and when or if shit hits the fan their the ones who said "I'm right behind you, mate" but all you can see is a dust trail going in the opposite direction....
Don't ever believe AM was gullible (easily led) into publishing a book, oh no, AM is/was street-wise in more ways than one. After all, he played his cards stacked high, and with cunning and guile he's taken advantage of everyone who crossed his path on the road to fame, inclusive riding the so-called stormy crest of his ex wife's book which did more to promote AM in the tabloid press than any candid shot of him in a compromising manner, (pics that could/might have surfaced with no blinkers) though non-blinkered snapshots from time to time do appear - few people notice them, and of those who do they wouldn't welch on him in any form. Best said that some perhaps are too scared of legal implications being as he has such a penchant for lawyers!
How would I rate his success? ....
a) High-powered businessman - hard-headed, go-getting!!! - a few blips here and there, but on the whole a credit to himself in a commercial sense...
b) A sentiment here, a sentiment there for others, but never too off guard on personal front because if someone hits below the belt it can still hurt him - (more sensitive than he cares to admit) and that's something all the money in the world can't buy you out of - your rootstock. However, he must be taking heart, surely, by the simple eaquation and example of weedy sapling in overcrowded glade - end result of felled monsters all around and the sapling left in sunny glade... need i say more?
I must admit I do feel for the "old and bold" who stand by their honour to regiment and last man standing and all that, but hell, now the cats well and truly out of the SAS sack, I think you can kiss goodbye to the regiment as you've known it for the last decade and a bit. The times they are a changing - anyone remember the rest of the song?
There are wonderful opportunities for ex SAS/SBS men to write thrilling adventure books without writing about the reg/squad - their past experience is no less valuable, and wouldn't it be really something to get a book published on its own merits not on the Excalibur emblem?....
I'm tired - back to the sofa for a rest...
>>By devonwren (Tuesday, 27 Apr 2004 10:20)
Often the idea has passed through the ante-room of my brain.
Why do SF, ex or not who want to write about their experience in the Regiment and OPS, have to bother with the MOD.
Why can't they simply use their wives name or any one elses name as the so-called author.
Ok this might sound stupid, cause then she/he/it will take all the credit for the book and he won't be in the limelight.
But if you give a script to a bookagent or publisher, anyone could have written that script. Where and what is the proof that those words are yours ? So what has the MOD have to do with it ?
In a way I think it's a pity that the "Mistery" that was wrapped around the Regiment, has disappeared. Books, tv-series, movies etc. have taken away its veil of secrecy. Training, selection is now known to everyone, only the OPS are kept secret and thank God for that. Or will that also be given to the public through our longing and urging of forever knowing "the truth". Journalists, magazines always out there to get the last scoop, alongside some of these guys even.
Remember the beginning of the war in Afghanistan, CNN had its people alongside SF-guys.
As for Mcnab. I think he's done a good job. He got the opportunity to make money and took it, who wouldn't have done the same thing. There will always be those who like/love him and those who don't and despise him. What has civvie-street got to offer you after you've left the Reg. Security-stuff, BG-stuff, Training-stuff,.....big deal yes, lots of money doing these jobs, depends and is it worth it ?
>>By borisette (Tuesday, 27 Apr 2004 13:37)
If I may be old and bold (strictly concerning this messageboard - of course) for a mo, then I'd say if I've learned anything from the times this came up: the Regiments old and bold say that there's nothing wrong with telling your story but there's a time and a place for everything. McNab's (and others) stories are too recent, that's not done and might endanger current ops.
Can't say that I have the inside knowledge to confirm truth or fiction here, I can only say that I enjoy the books though I have no illusion it's all truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Still a good read.
I am well aware of the fact that critisism (below the belt or not) from military grounds can be hurtful for AM, very human to worry about the one who's critical amongst the hundreds who are applauding. And there's imho enough critisism here, so I stick too the applauding.
>>By Lynn (Tuesday, 27 Apr 2004 14:01)
"then I'd say if I've learned anything from the times this came up: the Regiments old and bold say that there's nothing wrong with telling your story but there's a time and a place for everything"
Oh absolutely, Lynn, and bl**dy pointless shutting the stable door after the horse has already bolted!!
Unfortunately, the recent showing of the Embassy Siege documentary (schedulled 2003) brought forth shock horror and scorn from the "Palace" - the Queen then ousted SAS bodyguards from royal security duties (appalled by manners befitting drunken yobs). Disbandment was short-lived upon Windsor Castle fiasco (Osama lookalike and other walk-ins), but the coarseness of the majority of those ex SAS men who were interviewed for that doc put the Reg in very bad limelight: in respect of those who gobbed off as though starstruck by media attention for a second time.
One could almost smell the blood and sweat of new books in the making, and I have to say I was surprised titles weren't slipped/dropped though free advertising which came with the show...The majority of those who were featured would have been better binned on the cutting-room floor, for they did no favours for any sense of articulation beyond that of below average intellect: something they are not all short on by any means.
Thing is, it's OK to be rough & tough as an elite soldier in the field of war, but when featured on a TV doc it's good "tactically" to at least appear to be a gentleman even if it cramps your backside and is out of character for every day usage!
>>By devonwren (Tuesday, 27 Apr 2004 16:17)
-- DW Re: >>The majority of those who were featured would have been better binned on the cutting-room floor, for they did no favours for any sense of articulation beyond that of below average intellect: something they are not all short on by any means.<<
Interesting point-- I know it's been mentioned somewhere on this board that AM is a person who can fit in to almost any social setting from rough and tumble to formal business or social setting.
Perhaps his particular book (B20), as well as CR's and MC's, were selected because it was seen as being most successful from a PR point of view. His writing is pretty matter-of-fact without a lot of the ebellishiments readers would expect from a PR or PA stand. Perhaps he was approached for that reason. He was the most decorated fellow at the time (whether it was deserved or not is beside the point) and since his name was in the news, his book would have name recognition. Same with CR's book later.
Just wondering-- Were there any major outcries at the time about unexplained or deaths due to neglect in training or on training missions. It would explain why his (and other SF fellows) books were vetted through MoD. Not because they are "spokespersons", per se, but because MoD only allow certain things emphasized or deemphasized in his books. And IA goes through the selection process quite clearly. Shows how selection and prepping themselves for selection is a choice made by the individuals, how they push themselves to succeed, and how simple it is for a small error in judgement to end in severe injury or death. It also shows how harsh the atmosphere is in the military, but that it is for a reason. These are things the public often forgets. Coddle the soldiers and make their training too easy and they become walking targets without the preparation to deal with being under fire or operating in a war-zone.
As far as letting the secrets out of the bag with the SF-- IMHO, AM, CR, DF etc., publishing their books was, in the long run, a good thing. We are in an age where anti-military politics and the media are trying to strip the military of it's respect, morale and confidence from within and without. I think allowing AM and others to publish was a move allowed by the MoD to get a more positive side of the story out while the SF/military still has a chance of retaining it's reputation. The SF (as well as the regular military) are some of the best in the world at what they do and every little slanted news story or example of yellow journalism digs away at the public's respect and confidence in them. AM's, CR's and all the others books are a good way to get a story told that otherwise wouldn't get a 2 inch column on page 37 of any newspaper.
I'm sure all of what I just wrote has been posted by others in some form or other before. Sorry for not giving credit where it's due, but you know who you are. ;-)
And yes, Andy (and Chris's) and his managers/publishers are good businessmen. Driving book sales and celebrity impact higher off of a related book or other media blitz is SOP.
>>By Dare (Tuesday, 27 Apr 2004 17:38)
Assuming that most publishers want to stay in business and generate profit, then their goal is to publish books that will sell, quickly and in quantity. Any new manuscript (story) is a measured gamble. Will it be able to generate enough income to pay the author and the production staff who get it ready for publication? What will it cost to market it, to cover production costs, to promote it when released? Will it generate profit over and above these costs?
To assess the gamble, publishers identify the subject matter, its appropriate target market and marketing channels. They ask: Who will read/buy this book? They want to know their target audience. Will it be a broad audience? Will it be a small, specialized audience?
The beauty (and genius) of Bravo Two Zero is that it crosses audiences and marketing channels. The military market would have been assumed, but the publishers did not have to be hit over the head (this time anyway) to recognize a cracking good basic human-interest story. It is perfectly logical that they, along with the MoD, streamlined B20 into a conventional format, discretely edited to include legitimizing "insider" details while glossing over specific facts which would have been questionable (at best) and uncomfortably controversial (no doubt) if presented to the public at large.
Personal now: To listen to some accusations, it seems one man, one author, was able to single-handedly set in motion the destruction of the SAS mystique, the corruption of serving and ex- soldiers, the demoralization of the entire Regiment, and the devastation of Hereford's community. Wow! What operative training to accomplish all that thru the telling of a gritty, gory, white-washed, washed-over failed SAS mission -- names and details changed to protect both the innocent and the guilty alike. Get a grip! B20 is not a sworn deposition, not testimony given in court; it is not treasonous or subversive, it does not make policital statements or moral judgements. It is a book -- a book which tells a story -- a story that appeals to military and civvies alike.
An aside: I haven't found much in UK sources related to some of the issues Mike Coburn spells out clearly in Soldier Five. Has google failed me?
>>By am-i-binned (Tuesday, 27 Apr 2004 18:27)
borisette:
Re MOD: it wouldn't matter whose name was on the cover, as it is the -content- that the MOD checks with scrutiny.
>>By ortlieb (Tuesday, 27 Apr 2004 21:00)
Borisette-"As for Mcnab. I think he's done a good job. He got the opportunity to make money and took it, who wouldn't have done the same thing. "
I could name a great list of names of men who wouldn't have done what he did. And as you think the means justifies the ends (money in bank account) I am afraid it shows your mores, there is so much more to life, from my time spent in North Carolina and DC I fear that is the american way of life and belief which is why their economy has shifted to China etc, they want to be able to buy as much as possible for as little as possible - who cares if it comes from slave labour. That said few American delta guys will tell their stories, I have worked for months in those pink roofed buildings at Fort Bragg and know the guys there well, they are as horrified by McN as the old and bold are in Hereford. Money isn't what life is about, contrary to popular belief. Americans, and I fear Brits are not far behind, are conditioned like Pavlovs dogs, certain words have to be followed by excessive spending, christmas, st patricks day, valentines day, easter, etc etc.
please no more congratulating McN cos he made money, so has every tin pot dictator in history, should be applaud them also?
Ask McN how much of his money he has given to the welfare of widows and children of the SAS..... i know it is very little and I also know of promises he made to one young man whose late father was a B squadron guy, he promised to pay for a school trip - on front of many witnesses, but once those witnesses were not around, not a penny materialised, the trip was paid for by a few of us who knew the story of how he betrayed that young man. Sorry to the groupies, but McN is a self serving publicist who cares only about himself, and he could easily appear in public with no recriminations, but it adds to the mystique and from there to his bank balance - opps said it again
>>By barkingbob (Tuesday, 27 Apr 2004 21:33)
Barking Bob, it seems to me that not only AM made some m ***y. Saw a book done by his ex and i am still hoping that a baker,dentist, butcher or even a window cleaner from Hereford will put his memories to the paper, along the likes of "Fresh Bread( or any other service) , my bread/teeth/ meat/ clean windows, made the SAS look good"
It looks like more people want to ride this m***y wave .....
Surfs up !
Ninjawoman
>>By Ninjawoman (Tuesday, 27 Apr 2004 22:03)
Uhm... Barkingbob?
Just wondering.... do you collect a paycheck in compensation for services you render or do you work gratis or pro bono maybe?
>>By am-i-binned (Tuesday, 27 Apr 2004 22:59)
"no more congratulating McN cos he made money, so has every tin pot dictator in history, should be applaud them also?"
Sheesh Barker, the times we get to our heads 'get real'... I'd ask the same of you this time.
>>By Lynn (Wednesday, 28 Apr 2004 01:14)
Lynn - the times we get to our heads 'get real'... I'd ask the same of you this time.
not sure what this means.... please enlighten me
As I am a lawyer within the forces, i do a lot of pro bono work, mainly for wives of service men who want to get a divorce and are afraid they will have no where to live, and for women who are battered and need a lot of support to leave the "safe" arms of the services. Unlike my US counterparts I cannot claim this back on my tax return, but I do take the Queen's shilling for the work I do while in uniform. I love the work I do, both in and out of uniform. I respect the men and women I serve with too much and I would NEVER sell any of the stories I have heard, no matter how big the wad of cash McN and Lucas chose to wave in front of my face. Read the newspaper article written by Tom Read's ghost writer shortly after he committed suicide, to see how McN talked Nish into writing his book, a tormented man, McN wore him down, he doesn't deserve any adulation, he is just a very average regiment guy who got lucky with his ghost writers.
>>By barkingbob (Wednesday, 28 Apr 2004 02:11)
BB-- Attorney's can't sell or tell the stories they hear in the course of their job without losing any license they have to practise law, being fined ALOT of money and probably going to jail. It's called attorney-client privelege. I can't imagine our laws being that far apart in that area. As far as doing the job in the military, it's not pro-bono if it is part of military duty to represent these people. When volunteering to do this outside of regular duties, then it's pro-bono.
Good for you for doing a good job for your clients and keeping their stories and info to yourself. It's part of being an ethical attorney.
As far as the rest, since AM isn't here to present his side of the story, I'll reserve judgement. You have your stories. I'm sure he has his. You obviously have a personal bias. It comes across loud and clear.
And I still like AM's work... period.
>>By Dare (Wednesday, 28 Apr 2004 04:26)
Barkingbob...
<< Read the newspaper article written by Tom Read's ghost writer... >>
May we have the link, please?
>>By am-i-binned (Wednesday, 28 Apr 2004 08:32)
"As far as the rest, since AM isn't here to present his side of the story, I'll reserve judgement. You have your stories. I'm sure he has his. You obviously have a personal bias. It comes across loud and clear."
Shame Dare, that you didn't "reserve" judgement = postpone, set-back for later comment: when full facts have materialised - until such time mouths are better off well-zipped!!
BIAS, is the easy word frantically utilised for arguments wearing thin in all directions.
I would never be so absolute in saying McNab was not here...
Once again we are sliding toward childish tit-for-tat, slap-for-slap, wack-for-wack, and needles stuck in age-old groove! In fact the whole issue about who is the best'est ex SAS man turned writer, who is richest, and all the other ridiculous statements about ex SAS personnel mentioned on this board is wearing thin, and a sad reflection of the little distance you have travelled in the name of AM and his writing...
The hardest bread for some of you to swallow is the fact that ghost writers have been proved to exist within the circle of ex SAS/SBS bookies, and the very fact that you're not quite sure (or can't prove otherwise) whether Andy McNab uses a ghost writer or not is irksome to you. After all, that one fact, and general uncertainty about one or two people who regularly voice an opnion here, adds to nervous reflex comments...There are those "here and elsewhere" who do know the true facts on AM, and power to their elbow for retaining cool persona' in what often becomes a fractious environment. In all honesty you can push each and everyone to the edge of petty and retaliatory comments and none will crack under pressure...
That said, the more socially aware, the more reasonable, the less vocally judgemental among you have their suspicions as to who is who and what is what! It shows in baited questions put forth behind the scenes...
Professional ethics aside, I cast the question (heavily baited line) "What do you all think of Kiss 'n' Tell punters in general?
Bear in mind memoirs are often covert means of kiss 'n' tell...
>>By devonwren (Wednesday, 28 Apr 2004 09:24)
Mike (Kiwi) Coburn piece - does the guy sound familiar?:
http://entertainment.scotsman.com/
books/headlines_specific.cfm?id=8360
Read the last entry to gain sensible perspective on pre and post Soldier 5 from Coburn's viewpoint:
http://www.compleatseanbean.com/
bravo-press25.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1806623.stm
Guardian Newspaper article: more or less samey!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/
0%2C3604%2C1167652%2C00.html
>>By devonwren (Wednesday, 28 Apr 2004 12:07)
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