Andy Mcnab
Forum
Pages: 1 ... 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 ... 297
In case you didn't know the Iraqis had nothing to do with 9/11 or terrorism, but Bush decided to kill 10,000+ civilians and maim 35,000 more, just in case they were thinking about becoming terrorists, after all they are only Ayrabs.
The people of the West stand at a point right now. That the US Government is using torture on POWs is beyond argument. One can either stand up and denounce that torture and demand the firing of all who took part in it or one is by default complicit, an accessory after the fact, seen by all to condone such barbarism.
Anyone who steps across that line is trapped. Unable to look at what they themselves have become they will refuse to look at what their government has become, indeed will create or accept any justification, no matter how thin and transparent, rather than question what their government condones. And indeed this discussion site has already shown that people have already crossed that point, and are trying to explain why torture is really necessary "this time".
Haven't any of you studied history, read how Hitler and Stalin slowly got their countrymen to be complicit in what they instigated, if we dont learn from history we are doomed to repeat it.
I wish there was a bottle of Glenmorangie in this place, boy do I need it..................
>>By barkingbob (Thursday, 6 May 2004 21:51)
Those quizes say I am "definite SAS potential. A prime candidate" and "have all the skills to make a successful journey to the North" too! Let's celebrate, Maj and Jif! :-)
That Arctic thing isn't happening though. Not in this lifetime! I like my body parts thawed... preferably lightly toasted on a beach where the sands and the men are hot, the water and sky is blue and the drinks come with little umbrellas or picks with fruit on them. Actually I prefer water till the sun goes down -- then bring on the booze! But that whole frozen tundra stuff isn't for me. Science be da**ed! I'll study tidal pools and the life cycle of some tropical fish. That's the life for me!
:-)
And the SAS thing sounds like fun but probably not a good career move for me. I'm not "grey man" material. I'd be nice to everybody, use my flashers when I drove getaway cars, point, wave, forget all the nifty signals and call signs, have the theme from "Mission Impossible" or "Imperial March" from Star Wars as the ringer on my cell phone....
"Ummm... hey Delta? How's it goin? Well, just thought I'd FYI ya... whatsisname is on the move.... You know, the guy with the thing. That guy with the grey jacket over a blue jumper. Why do you guys call them jumpers, anyway. Oh well, never mind! Anyway... Yeah! That's the one! Anyway, he's on the move. He went left... no, wait make that right.." I'd be dead from "not-so-friendly" fire in about 5 minutes. ;-)
I'll toss back a few shots in celebration, then cheer Majoretter and Jiffer on from the sidelines. :-)
>>By Dare (Thursday, 6 May 2004 21:56)
SAS potential me "fit, loyal and discreet"
Oh boy, did I cheat !!!
On the arctic I have to cross my fingers....yeah right.. like I would go there :o|
Bob, have one on me. I think history is repeated every day - just different people, different places - but it's still always about power.
>>By Lynn (Thursday, 6 May 2004 22:47)
BB---- You are wrong. Either misinformed or completely blind to facts. Iraqi's were involved in 9/11, as members of Al-Qaeda and supported by and assisted by Saddam and his regime. Most terrorist organizations aren't completely manned by people from one specific country or another, nor are they based or supplied by only one country. Iraq and many other countries are supporters of terrorist organizations.
The American and coalition troops didn't kill 10,000 civilians in the war or in the aftermath of the war. Any manner in which you could even approach a number like that is by complete obfuscation of fact and downright misrepresentation. And American and coalition troops aren't there because "they are only Arabs".
Nem has a right to his opinion, whether you agree with it or not. It's a good thing you don't have the power to tell a military person to leave the service simply because they may have said something in the heat of the moment or made a comment you found offensive. I may not agree with the comment but his right to say it is without question.
What the photographs have shown isn't torture. It's humiliating and degrading, but not torture.
Torture is the purposeful breaking of bones, removing people's healthy teeth without use of painkillers, leaving wounds to fester and infect when means exist for proper medical treatment, cutting off the hands and feet, lips, ears and noses of men, women and children, forcibly raping and sodomizing them. Those things are torture. To even try and characterize the current scandal of these photos as psychological torture is stretching a very fine line and that doesn't work either.
"Torture" or "abuse" hasn't happened there as a matter of systemic activity by American or coalition forces. There has been evidence of activity of a small group of individuals and it's being investigated and pursued. The truth about the situation won't be known until things have been investigated FULLY. The fact that those investigations are taking place, people have already been questioned and punished for their parts in these acts and further investigation is ongoing is proof that there isn't some master plan to slowly inculcate others into some nefarious system of torture.
Comparing what's happened here with Stalin or Hitler, or Saddam’s regime for that matter, is complete and utter hogwash. Either you don't KNOW the history you use as an example or you purposely choose to misconstrue and draw correlation’s that only the most rabid bigots would make and you, sir, are the one exhibiting the bigotry here.
>>By Dare (Thursday, 6 May 2004 23:29)
There is torture, if you start reading outside the box, dont be brainwashed. read the following links. Ive been in the military for over 20 years, and have been for the most part proud to serve with men and women from all countries but it doesn't make me blind to my "family's" terrible mistakes
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=
story&cid=127&ncid=
742&e=7&u=/uclicktext/20040504/cm_
ucru/anarmyofscum
WASHINGTON, May 6 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Media Matters for America has posted Rush Limbaugh's comments (May 4, 2004, Rush Limbaugh Show) about the Abu Ghirad prison torture in Iraq. In discussing the torture of Iraqi prisoners, Limbaugh claims the U.S. Guards were "having a good time" and compares images of the torture to Madonna and Britney Spears concerts.
"Rush Limbaugh's consistently extreme commentary has operated with almost total impunity for far too long," Media Matters for America President David Brock said today. "Media Matters for America now has in place a system to monitor, analyze and correct conservative misinformation in the media -- including Rush Limbaugh, one of America's most influential political commentators."
"Limbaugh on torture of Iraqis: U.S. guards were 'having a good time,' 'blow(ing) some steam off'," and more analyses of conservative misinformation, can be found at the Media Matters for America website: http://www.mediamatters.org.
Media Matters for America is a Web-based, not-for-profit, progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media. Media Matters for America is the first organization to systematically monitor the media for conservative misinformation -- every day, in real time -- in 2004 and beyond.
>>By barkingbob (Friday, 7 May 2004 00:32)
Torture - mental and physical - is a humiliating process of degrading the mind to base indignity of cowering in the manner of a helpless beast! To condone either or to even try to justify one as less tortuous or less painful by downgrading to mere humiliation status, not only displays lack of understanding of torture methodology it shows blind judgement or blind stupidity (whichever you prefer) in daring to compare pulling of teeth, electric shock treatment/therapy, or Russian Roulette... EST torture can be administered with barely a mark left as evidence - favourite place - genitalia/tongue etc...Even AM was glad to have escaped EST...
..................
COALITION casualties Gulf War 2: 2003 - 2004:
As of May 5, 2004, the coalition death toll in this conflict was 870. Out of 870, 764 U.S., 59 UK, 17 Italian, 11 Spanish, 6 Bulgarian, 6 Ukrainian, 2 Thai, 2 Polish, 1 Danish, 1 Estonian and 1 Salvadoran have died. More than 80% of these died after Bush's announcement on May 1, 2003 that major combat was over.
Troops killed in action account for 640 of the coalition casualties, including 559 of the U.S. casualties.
According to the Pentagon, 4,133 U.S. soldiers had been wounded in action through May 3, 2004, of whom 2,546 were wounded severely enough that they could not return to action within 72 hours. An additional 444 U.S. troops were wounded in non-hostile circumstances through March 31, 2004. (Starting in April, 2004, the Pentagon is apparently reporting statistics only on soldiers wounded in action.)
Another source, though, reported that as of November 28, 2003, 9,675 troops had either been killed, wounded, injured, or become sick enough to need evacuation [1].
Coalition soldiers continue to come under attack in towns across Iraq.
Coalition casualties in the 2003-2004 conflict are now more than double those of the 1990-1991 Gulf War, and Iraqi casualties appear to have reached similar levels, though accurate counts of the latter are not available for either conflict. (In the Gulf War, coalition forces suffered around 378 deaths, and among the Iraqi military, tens of thousands were killed, along with thousands of civilians.)
Many non-combatants have been killed or wounded during the war as well, including at least 24 journalists and more than 150 UN, international aid personnel, and foreign contractors.
Finally, there is another notable category of casualties among citizens of coalition countries in this war: armed civilian security contractors in Iraq, many of them working for the U.S. Department of Defense. Although reporting on this situation has been quite sparse, one article [2] reports that at least 80 such "mercenaries" recruited from the U.S., Europe, and South Africa to work in Iraq for American companies were killed during a period of 8 days in early April 2004--more than the roughly 70 coalition troops who were killed in the same period.
IRAQI CIVILIAN Casualties.
The Iraq Body Count project: (independent organisation)
The Iraq Body Count project, which compiles reported Iraqi civilian deaths (excluding deaths attributable to the Iraqi government) has a minimum estimate of 9,058 and a high of 10,914 as of May 5, 2004.
As for the major combat phase of the war from March-April 2003, Abu Dhabi TV reported on April 8, 2003 that Iraqi sources claimed 1,252 civilians had been killed and 5,103 had been wounded. In comparison, the Iraq Body Count Project estimated that through April 9, 2003, between 996 and 1,174 civilians had been killed.
>>By devonwren (Friday, 7 May 2004 01:24)
OBTW: If you think your SAS fit "tough enough", how do you think you'd all fair with torturing , humiliating, and degrading your fellows as part of their ongoing training? It is that very kind of training that prepared and brought the men of B20 through their awful experience during captivity in Iraq...That's really what selection is all about - whether you can stand being tortured and hold out against unpleasant interrogation/sleep deprivation procedures!
>>By devonwren (Friday, 7 May 2004 01:40)
I remember Frank Collins being very distressed that it was female soldiers who did the humiliating when he was on the escape and evade part of his selection course, he didn't expect women to revel in this, but the photos we have seen recently show this is not unusual. He was humiliated while naked by female officers and soldiers, and this was common.
Those who have been powerless all their lives, can become the worst offenders when given power over another human being.
>>By barkingbob (Friday, 7 May 2004 01:52)
Hmmmmmmmmm. If I am mistaken I think the last lines of B2O said it all as far as torture is concerned...I love the LEFTY LOVEFEST, but these were uneducated poorly advised US soldiers. Not the entire US military did this. I know...."Its Bushs fault"....Right?
Andy McNab put this all into perspective and after all who could blame him or the others(KIWI).
Now the poofest may begin MG.
>>By DTO (Friday, 7 May 2004 02:07)
Interesting point you make barking bob, but I bet you see it slightly different, as your posts reflect someone who is overpowered at home, and take out your frustration on people you dont have to look in the eye, and not as the "real" you, the joys of the internet I guess, it lets people who are undermined and overpowered in their real lives try and live out some of their weird dreams from the comfort of home.........anonomously.
As for torture etc, war is war, and the geneva convention at least gives some guidelines for people to conciously cross, but like most sports games, what happens on the field, should stay on the field, [battlefield even] ;-)
>>By Head Shed (Friday, 7 May 2004 02:13)
Head Shed, great name, bet you have never come near the real thing. I wish I was at home, part of my remit is to mop up the mess caused by the braindead, I should have retired 3 years ago, but was asked to stay, I have the blood of innocents on my hands now, and those who have faced death and faced an enemy know what I mean, from the "innocent" humiliation of Irish civilians by frank Collins (as admitted in his autobio) to the torture and abuse and murder of innocent Iraqis, including 70 year old women, this is not war, never was, it is the subjucation of one people by another.
The total of civilian deaths, whether they be 3,200 or 10,000, is low compared with conventional wars a half-century ago. But for a decade the Pentagon promised to end wars as we knew them with laser-guided surgical strikes of only military targets. The military cannot have it both ways, promising unprecedented precision at the same time it downplays mistakes through historical context. The alleged precision makes the casualties look less like an example of Bush's kindness than William Calley's out-of-control forces gunning down up to 500 Vietnamese civilians at My Lai in 1968.
Just one Iraqi civilian death is horrible blood on our hands given that the attack on Iraq have been based on a lie. Yes, Saddam Hussein killed thousands of his own people. But an American massacre does not make things right. If Americans have half the humanity they claim, they will no longer accept Bush at face value when his officers say, "We don't do body counts."
If we do not count the bodies, this atrocity will never have a face.
>>By barkingbob (Friday, 7 May 2004 02:19)
BB-- Re: "Rush Limbaugh's consistently extreme commentary has operated with almost total impunity for far too long," Media Matters for America President David Brock said today. "Media Matters for America now has in place a system to monitor, analyze and correct conservative misinformation in the media -- including Rush Limbaugh, one of America's most influential political commentators."
"Limbaugh on torture of Iraqis: U.S. guards were 'having a good time,' 'blow(ing) some steam off'," and more analyses of conservative misinformation, can be found at the Media Matters for America website: http://www.mediamatters.org.
If you really are interested in reading or hearing what Rush Limbaugh has to say, perhaps you might want to get your information from the source. Rush has a website where you can read what he really thinks and says about it. Then you can make up your own mind about the subject. If you insist on getting your information from people who present biased viewpoints as “news” or “facts” then expect to get it wrong.
That is why I check my sources of news and facts from the source that I wish to quote and other sources of information that present supporting and dissenting views. This way I can decide based on what I think about the information provided.
DW-- Sorry, I don't buy it. This "independent organisation" is also a "comprehensive public database of media-reported civilian deaths in Iraq resulting directly from military action by the USA and its allies in 2003".
From their website-- "Casualty figures are derived solely from a comprehensive survey of online media reports. Where these sources report differing figures, the range (a minimum and a maximum) are given. All results are independently reviewed and error-checked by at least three members of the Iraq Body Count project team before publication."
Having The Iraq Body Count's agenda-driven propaganda checked for accuracy by "three members of the Iraq Body Count project team" isn't independent. It's biased, not on a basis of opinion, (which we've discussed here on this board not all that long ago) but in the compilation and dissemination of facts. Their rationale is slanted and their methodology is flawed if they insist on basing their numbers on ANY victim of terrorist bombings and police activities without any reasonable attempt to differentiate between victims of terrorism, innocent bystanders of firefights, accidents, victims of police, and policemen themselves in the performance of their duties. Then the people who check on the accuracy of these news stories are people from their own staff who have a specific agenda. Heaven knows, IT MUST BE TRUE BECAUSE THEY SAY IT IS TRUE!
Wow! Doesn’t that tactic or argument seem familiar!?! ;-/
The scrolling information in the side column of the website is running a tally of victims of car bombings, bus bombings, policemen at checkpoints, off or on duty policemen, etc.
Jan 01: Arab man in clashes with police in Kirkuk
Jan17: two ICDC members near Taji
Jan 18: 13-17 injured, 1 possibly killed by bomb, Karbala
Jan 27: son of former Ba'ath Party member in Basra
Jan 27: two shot dead after roadside explosion in Khaldiyah
Late Feb: eight found dead in Kirkuk house after a month
Apr 02: six in car bombing at market, Ramadi
Apr 03: one or two, including police chief in Al-Khadra, Baghdad
Apr 20: 22 detainees at Abu Ghraib prison, Baghdad
The last one was added quite recently. Interesting. None of those body-counts are substantiated by ANYthing other than a news story.
Ok, on to the torture thing. My views of what happened aren’t the issue here. EST isn’t the problem here. There are photos of humiliating abuse, not torture, taking place. The investigations will give facts about what happened and we’ll hear ALL about it on the news. We’ll leave it up to them whether they present facts or editorials.
PS. BB-- I thought you were a legal clerk/officer?
>>By Dare (Friday, 7 May 2004 03:08)
Its OK Barking Bob, no need to explain......really ;-)
I note you didnt actually disagree with my post though...apart from saying you wished your were at home.
>>By Head Shed (Friday, 7 May 2004 04:25)
Barking bob:
first of all i said who cares, secondly how does that make me a bad person. obviously you have no idea of how a soldiers mind works other wise you wouldn't come out with such crap "we all want to just kill them and get out of that sh*t hole". and secondly how can an AGC legal officer no anything about what the really miliary is like, your a pen pusher and wouldn't know what combat is about if it smacked you in the head, and as for being an officer we all know your clueless anyway. and as for leaving that would do the armys retention problem the world of good.
and since your such an expert on the whole thing you should know that them photos are fake, a1 rifles for example the cleanest bedford in the gulf, the fact that he looked like he was on holiday not getting beat to death. they all kinda say fake.
and what about psyops, could the yank photos that didn't look bad could have been a psyops exercise.
well enough of my rant for now
>>By Nemesis2842004 (Friday, 7 May 2004 08:48)
and one day i will proof read these posts " arrrrrgggghhhh"
>>By Nemesis2842004 (Friday, 7 May 2004 08:49)
I didn't think there was anything wrong with your post Nem ??? ;o)
>>By Lynn (Friday, 7 May 2004 09:19)
Fake Brit pics Nemesis - I agree with you, things don't add up...That said, why would "soldiers" hand them over to a tabloid newspaper? I think that is where the shock factor enters centre stage...
What did that "soldier", now under investigation (talking to military intelligence/police) want or intend to achieve with publication of the pics?
a) Was it five minutes of fame? Answer NO, he wanted to remain anonymous...(not surprising given the magnitude of notoriety now attached to those pics, not to mention escalating foreign disapproval from around the globe - makes no difference excuse wise to say yeah, but Saddam was worse, it just proves that coalition military personnel are sinking below the line of "duty" as civilised human beings in the role of occupying forces!!!)
b) Was it moral conscience?
c) Was it payback time for colleagues? (a misfit?)
d) How did he acquire the pics?
..........
As to "military expertise" around here, seems to me punchbag mentality has taken precedence and any sense of reality thrown out of the window...
As for "Facts & Sources", most at best are sketchy (journalistic), and unless any one of you is embedded in military intelligence, quite frankly anything posted here is based on speculation!! Damn it all, info comes my way but I couldn't repeat it here, as for the news media, well, they rely on dripping leaks from cry-baby snitchers, tapped phones, and any illegal means at their disposal to eavesdrop on private conversation (read ministerial e-mail correspondence) at every given opportunity...
>>By devonwren (Friday, 7 May 2004 10:25)
Re Dare comment DW: "I don't buy it" as in meaning don't buy the independence of the organisation: those involved with Iraq Body Count, right?
Yeah well, the French didn't approve of Greenpeace, did they, and sunk a ship which caused needless loss of life: peace protestors!
Please take a look at the people involved in the Iraq Body Count...
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/contacts.htm
http://www.comw.org/pda/0310rm8.html
>>By devonwren (Friday, 7 May 2004 11:10)
my last comment on the illegal invasion of Iraq, I know some won't read it as they are too scared to confront the truth
www.johnpilger.com
As for the insults about being a pen pushing officer, you have managed to give enough evidence against yourself, just in that short time. The great British Tommy at his best.......
DW, I hope the photographs were given to the press out of conscience, thousands of GIs killed themselves after returning from Vietnam, maybe this one was soldiers way of trying to live with himself
>>By barkingbob (Friday, 7 May 2004 15:02)
The first casualty of war is the truth, no further proof needed.
>>By camban (Friday, 7 May 2004 15:28)
The second casualty is trust... and no amount of "proof" can restore that...
>>By am-i-binned (Friday, 7 May 2004 18:16)
Thank you, camban and AIB. Good points and said nicely and concisely.
BB and DW--- get the message. I don't find your sources or statements credible. Others may or may not feel the same way. Don't bother to try and inundate with more sources. We are all capable of researching for ourselves. Your blatant editorializing isn't necessary for intelligent people to make up their own minds about these situations. Not in this case, AM's supposed "dickheadedness" or any other.
>>By Dare (Friday, 7 May 2004 19:32)
Ah, so counter-intelligence is not so hot, huh Dare, just a lot of hot air?
I felt sure with all that burst of energy something worthwhile would materialise to quash and vilify my sources (statements)...After all, as you so eloquently implied, you are more than capable of research projects...
Though I must say, I'm not sure how you could suppose any sense of editorial influence for my part upon articles provided by way of open URLs....
As to intelligence of other posters and making up of their own minds on any subject matter, that is not something anyone here is unable to voice for themselves, unless of course, you've taken it upon yourself to be spokesperson for all concerned...You do seem to have a bee under your bonnet!
AM' s supposed "dickheadness" or any other ?
Straighten your underpants, and listen good: If I called AM a dickhead it was likely to his face not behind his back and we were laughing at the time - that I would say sets the record straight ...How I refer to AM in his defense or any other SAS man's defense on this board and, or, pick fault in SAS men, on my head be it if one or the other chooses to knock on my door...They know where I am...If you read my panto sketch you'd see I have no axe to grind at McNab per se, and didn't take the piss out him, either!!!
>>By devonwren (Friday, 7 May 2004 20:34)
DW-- you talk out of both sides of your mouth. Get a grip and don't worry about my underpants.
>>By Dare (Friday, 7 May 2004 20:39)
Oh God.... just finished reading 4 pages of Gnooks banter.
That's what they should do: Have POW's proof-read ALL 170 ++ pages !!!
>>By ortlieb (Friday, 7 May 2004 21:22)
By the way.. all the stuff that's EXPLODED in the civvie-media is just same old, same old.
Anyone who's done interrogation-training in peace-time can say that they've endured the same, or perhaps, worse treatment on excercises.
Obviously, you can argue that "but then you KNOW it's peace-time", and rightly so. In a real conflict situation, you have that extra edge of fear, knowing "this is for real".
Even so.... sleep-deprivation? I had to go through 180 hrs (that's 7.5 days) without sleep on one particular excercise. Was I then being tortured?
>>By ortlieb (Friday, 7 May 2004 21:26)
Okay, so let's see... 180 hours, eh? Well, if we read very slowly, reading only one page per hour at 170 pages, 170 hours... yep, that would be torture....
>>By am-i-binned (Friday, 7 May 2004 21:34)
JIF:
Re: tracers.
Just adding something to Nemesis' tech-info:
Tracers are mostly used on high-velocity, large-calibre weapons - such as machineguns (GPMG's), and heavier support weapon systems. The Browning 12,7 mm x 99 (or .50 cal) is a good example. The reason why tracers are used, is simply that you need them to "guide" your line of fire. The firing rate is so fast and irratic that a lot of rounds would be wasted if you didn't anything to guide your aim. Remember the opening sequence from "Saving Private Ryan" ? The German MG-42's had a firing-rate of over 25 rounds pr second (that's really f****ng fast!!!). We have the modernised MG-3 version in Norway (17-22 rounds pr second), and standard SOP is to have 1 tracer round for each 5. But with that ferocious firing-rate, it still looks like an uninterrupted laser-beam.
>>By ortlieb (Friday, 7 May 2004 21:42)
What is the name of this board again ???? Oh yes, Andy McNab discussion board .....hmmm we are in the discussion bit. Can anyone email me once this is all over ? Thank you
>>By Ninjawoman (Friday, 7 May 2004 21:52)
Dare: with all that bellowing bull I quite thought you were wearing your underpants on your head...
But of course, silly me, that was the image in one of the pics of an Iraqi prisoner. Poor old Rumsfeld apologised for that today, plus apologised for known (accepted) physical abuse of prisoners by US military personnel, too...
Oh shucks, the revelations of admitted torture just get worse and worse, but like everything, whether in training or war the truth will always out in the end whether we like it or not...The people of the world have united over many things, peoples of individual nations want the truth, and let's be honest everyone here wants the truth (dirt or tittiliating) on McNab, right?
And hey, guess what, there's a rumour going round that it was US troops who rigged the pics that have been pinned on the Brits (Lancs Reg)...If you believe that you'll believe anything, but then you have to remember it was a US soldier who tried to pin a physical abuse charge at Col Tim Collins feet. TC was fully exonerated of all charges...Thing was, though, Col Tim Collins bollocked that US trooper - petty crime, but major revenge which could have had disastrous consequences for Col TC...
Gee, I've got an ambidextrous mouth... Wow!...Ha ha, and a ciggy in each ear!
>>By devonwren (Friday, 7 May 2004 22:51)
Pages: 1 ... 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 ... 297
The discussion board is currently closed.
|
DISCOVER NEW BOOKS