Andy Mcnab
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>>By Dare (Friday, 7 May 2004 23:03)
I'm hardly on the board anymore, and didn't read all the posts, but I was struck by Barkingbob's comment, because I've been thinking about that a lot lately.
Ever since I saw the photographs in the newspaper.
It made me sad that the Americans were becoming their enemies, resorting to the same barbaric behavior that Andy has been subjected to.
Then again, I wasn't really surpirsed.
Soldiers from all nationalities have done these things throughout the ages.
My own people massacred, enslaved and tortured the Indonesians when it was a Dutch colony.
Ofcourse we never heard about that in school.
In school we only heard about the Dutch heroes who had been victorious over the sneaky and nasty Indonesian rebels, and about all the good things the civilised Dutch had brought the Indonesians.
The White Man's Burden, you know (see link)
www.boondocksnet.com/ai/kipling/kipling.html
That was some time ago.
But apparently some people still aren't up to facing that we are all human beings, and what Iraqis can do to Andy McNab, we can do to an Iraqi. For some people it is too hard to accept that good and evil exists in people from all nations.
There is no "them" and "us" here.
That this is still a sore point can be concluded from the reactions.
Too bad.
I didn't find anything insulting in your comment Bob, all the insulting was done by the ones who protested so much.
I don't think it is innapropriate to compare the process of getting the people to accept violence to Nazi methods .
On the other hand, I think comparing torture to sports is .
I agree with everything you say, Bob, (apart for the Glenmorangie ''cos I don't drink :))
But I hope you found that botltle ;)
>>By Lethe (Friday, 7 May 2004 23:07)
I've read that AM mentioned that books written by the higher (military) ranks are called 'memoirs' - those of the lower ranks 'revelations'
(calling it a typical case of the British difference in class in the academical sense of the word)
Any of the UK people got comment on that?
>>By Lynn (Friday, 7 May 2004 23:10)
Dare look away now: you don't trust my sources!!!
Coalition comrades will pay in blood for this barbaric idiocy
Andy McNab, the former SAS officer who was himself tortured in Abu Ghraib prison, says punishment must be swift.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/
main.jhtml?menuId=1592&menuItemId=-
1&view=SUMMARY&grid=P8&targetRule=0
>>By devonwren (Friday, 7 May 2004 23:11)
I do so love your butch beefy bullishness, Dare, it does present such an incredible image of all American ex military girl, though nothing like the rather charming female US military personnel I've met over the years...There was a US Naval base (yes, in Wales, UK) just a few miles distant from my second home - sadly they're gone now, and the base closed...
buddy ;-) (my original nic for those not aware of previous interaction)
>>By devonwren (Friday, 7 May 2004 23:33)
Thank you, DW/buddy! I knew you had a soft spot in your heart for me somewhere! And I enjoy your acid tongue and razor sharp wit! ;-)
The only image I've developed in our exchanges is of you. I wouldn't presume to judge the rest of Britain, it's women, men, military or civilian... based on ONE person. No matter HOW extraordinary or unusual that person may be. :-)
>>By Dare (Saturday, 8 May 2004 00:15)
And it isn't that I distrust YOUR sources. I am skeptical of almost EVERY news story or source I read until I've had a chance to check out their sources as well. A little natural skepticism is healthy. In which case I must be SO friggin healthy!!! :-)
>>By Dare (Saturday, 8 May 2004 00:26)
Lynn: yeh could be he truth, because a lot of officers publish that way and it's a fair point but not quite sure.
lethe: good post and you are so correct the british and americans hold the atrocities of the reich in the worst that ever was commited but the british actually invented the concentration camp in the bower war, and they did also leave them to die in the worst possible conditions, so gas or dying of any disease you can think of in a close space. whose the barbarians now?, thats why i think that we all have this evil side deep down or closer to the surface depending on the person and to hold anyone to ransome over such things is stupid and please forgive the quote from terminator 2 but it is in our nature to destroy ourselves, there is no good or evil there is just destiny.
"these are my thoughts so please don't tell me to get out of the army or i have proved that i am the typical "tommy" bb, and also can we get back to specalation about the latest books please!
>>By Nemesis2842004 (Saturday, 8 May 2004 00:44)
So far still go for this one Nem
"...on the government's so-called DEEP BLACK PROJECTS and COVER OPERATIONS programs"
>>By Lynn (Saturday, 8 May 2004 01:24)
Just a phrase
(....) learned of the deep black projects, the secrecy of which was beyond any other secret military project (..)
>>By Lynn (Saturday, 8 May 2004 01:42)
and another one:
"This report examines the existence of a CIA ‘black budget’ and an extensive network of ‘deep black projects’ that it funds"
>>By Lynn (Saturday, 8 May 2004 01:44)
Last one, then I'm really off ^_^ zzzzzzzzzz
Deep Black Projects
The October, 1989 issue of Aviation Week & Space Technology Magazine contained an article entitled Secret Advanced Vehicles Demonstrate Technologies for Future Military Use. The following statement in that article is very revealing: Although facilities in remote areas of the Southwest have been home to classified vehicles for decades, the number and sophistication of new aircraft appear to have increased sharply over the last 10 years when substantial funding was made available for deep black projects. The term deep black refers to top secret development projects, funded by so-called black funds, i.e., money not coming from any publicly approved source, and therefore government officials do not have to be informed about these projects.
>>By Lynn (Saturday, 8 May 2004 01:49)
Dare, "acid tongue and razor-sharp wit" comes from hanging out/living/working with men like AM...He in particular has the propensity to make one laugh at most inappropriate moments!!!
Forgive me, but did you not say pg 170: "BB and DW--- get the message. I don't find your sources or statements credible. " ?
Oh absolutely!! "A little natural scepticism is healthy", that's why I don't take everything said here about AM as verbatim and, look deeper at who is posting it...
Oh gosh, you mistunderstood entirely ref "All American" girl/boy - the stereptypical - in that I added on "unlike those that I've met"...
Err um, it's sort of common around us Brits to think/refer to SO as "significant other" (for those who haven't grasped that, yet), which can mean - depending on context of conversation - anything from alter ego, to live-in partner, to special little friend (in the case of children)...
Does that help to clear up differences between US & UK English/spelling/phrases?
>>By devonwren (Saturday, 8 May 2004 08:24)
Lynn, "CIA "Black Budget"....
Couple of novels/factuals already in the mainstream book flow on this particular subject, inclusive ex director of the CIA...
I would like to think AM will expand on "double line" thinking: after all, last book DW had a double thread plot same as LL...Would he wouldn't he get it together with Carrie (LL), yes he did and then he didn't, (Carrie coinsitent background plot) plus we had little "would he wouldn't he? scenarios in other books (CF etc - women) and he did and then didn't! His emotions are always shot to hell or teetering on the brink. With a title like Deep Black he has a worldly oyster of dirty dealings and corruption to play with, plus dammed up emotions enough to drown a dry seabed, and he can go several routes in either direction on personal overload...
Bearing in mind, constant sense of "reality" in AM books as opposed to fantastical James bond gadgets, if he doesn't hit that key "low point" of thinking himself in need of same as Kelly (Deep Black) and doing something about it, or adding to his pressures security-wise with a full-time partner, Nick Stone will just become another ongoing bomber-jacketed, jean-wearing "super hero" and more virtual than real-time: taking into consideration the trauma and uncertainties of past storylines....
>>By devonwren (Saturday, 8 May 2004 08:54)
Welcome back, Lethe!
And thank you...
<< ...what Iraqis can do to Andy McNab, we can do to an Iraqi. For some people it is too hard to accept that good and evil exists in people from all nations. There is no "them" and "us" here. >>
Exactly.
>>By am-i-binned (Saturday, 8 May 2004 11:57)
After secretly florking with mr. Mcnab and asking him when he'll do another inteview (with us offcourse) and what his next book Deep Black will be about.
This is what he answered :
NOTHING !
so this is my answer back to him :
dickhead (no offence though)
>>By borisette (Saturday, 8 May 2004 12:13)
MUAHAHAHAHA ....!
Had you all holding your breaths there, hadn't I.
>>By borisette (Saturday, 8 May 2004 12:31)
Due to recent objections lodged in respect of my posting info/URLs:
a list of books in relation to "Deep Black - Black Budget" projects (CIA) for anyone interested flork me for source:
>>By devonwren (Saturday, 8 May 2004 13:02)
LOL Bo !!
Definitely double meaning in 'deep black' Dev but since we posted that on page 159 I didn't want to repeat it.
It's a good title for speculation that's for sure.
Hi Lethe, nice to see you again - how's Holland? ;o)
>>By Lynn (Saturday, 8 May 2004 13:16)
Just in case:
'not repeat' as in a jokingly manner given the rep of board.
>>By Lynn (Saturday, 8 May 2004 13:22)
I know he's not the only one who said this, but since it's his board - this is from august 2002 (!)
"Westerners may remember the overwhelming victory of the Gulf War and have high expectations of a quick success in any repeat. But in a telephone interview with Reuters, McNab said the professional Iraqi soldiers who captured and tortured him far from the front lines were much better trained than the ragged conscripts the Western coalition met out in the desert. If attacked in an all-out war, Iraqi troops would probably hide in cities, forcing Western powers seeking to topple Saddam to inflict huge losses, and endure the sort of casualties no Western country has seen in decades, McNab said. (..)
He said Iraq would not fight out in the desert as it did during the Gulf War, but would move into the cities, where ultimately they could be defeated by Western forces, however only after costly casualties. You're looking at hundreds of troops becoming casualties, and then comes the question: does everyone have the motivation to continue this war"
>>By Lynn (Saturday, 8 May 2004 23:23)
Speaking of casualties of war as on page 170 (Camban)
"I was provided with additional input that was radically different from the truth. I assisted in furthering that version."
Colonel Oliver North, from his Iran-Contra testimony.
>>By Lynn (Saturday, 8 May 2004 23:44)
very good points lynn, it's not so much do the forces have the motivation, but do the public?. once again we are back to vietnam the first televised war, can the public handle the amount of casualties that will die. And also can the public handle the tactics we will have to apply to minimise loss, close quarter battle has a very high loss count and as this is turning out to vbe a gorrila war this is how it will go.
>>By Nemesis2842004 (Saturday, 8 May 2004 23:59)
LOL bo-bo! You are a tease!
Lynn-- Interesting points on all posts. ARGH! I'm already up WAY past my bed time or I would be more specific! These double-shift weekends really cut into my reading/posting time!!!
DW-- I can imagine AM making people laugh at inappropriate moments. It's one of the things I really enjoy about his books! :-D
Yes I did say that about not finding your sources or statements credible. That was one of those nasty blanket statements that should NEVER be made cause they come back and bite me in the butt! Thank you for pointing it out. I'll try not to do that again. :-p
Anyway, I don't find a number of the sources that were quoted, Iraqi Body Count being the one that comes to mind at the mo, as having great credibility. Either because I find their methods and manner of compiling data to be suspect or slanted, or I'm suspicious of their agendas and will need more input from them before I can make up my mind. Until then, I don't consider them a credible source. I don't consider every statement you and BB have made to be lacking in credibility, but do question the reason for the info or opinion to be given. So... a very legalistic, semantical (not a word I think but what the hey, it works for me ;-)) twisty explanation. If it made sense to you and you understood what I mean, then CONGRATULATIONS!!!! Will you please flork me and tell me what the HECK I just typed!?!?!
Thanks for the clarification of the SO thing. Did you refer to an SO in the posts somewhere? I don't see where the reference is from, but ok. I can always use assistance with deciphering UK to US-ese. :-)
I didn't have any problem with the "all-American" thing. I understood what you meant. You said I'm incredible! ;-) I just hope you don't think lots of ex-sailor all-American girls are like me. I would be seriously disappointed if they were! ;-)
In case you didn't notice, the word "I" came up in that last paragraph ... *counts on fingers* once per sentence! What can I say? I'm good.... and humble! And thank goodness there are five fingers on a hand. I'm way too sleepy to actually have to change hands to count higher at this point in the day.
;-)
See all you lovely people Monday! *blows big kiss to all*
>>By Dare (Sunday, 9 May 2004 06:06)
LOL, Dare!
Must be the combination of sleep dep and tulips -- you have me falling out laughing right now! :oD
>>By am-i-binned (Sunday, 9 May 2004 20:04)
(... a wee bit belated for Euro folks, but then I'm always behind the times... )
With wishes for lots o' love and laughter to All....
Happy Mother's Day!
>>By am-i-binned (Sunday, 9 May 2004 20:14)
lynn:
Chockful of tulips :)
AIB:
If I had known you would like it so much, I would have said so earlier ;)
>>By Lethe (Sunday, 9 May 2004 20:29)
Something nagged at the back of my mind when reading B20, TOTGA, and Soldier Five; surely there must have been some SAS patrols that were being successful out there, where are their stories? Also that not all troopers could be heroes? (Given the level of achievement in becoming badged, some of them must feel a bit precious at least, not wanting to risk their lives unnecessarily, given the status they have achieved).
Well, I have the answers now. Just read The Eye of The Storm by Peter Ratcliffe, the last third of the book being about A10 patrol, what an uplifting tale, really enjoyed it.
Also from the same source, learnt about two SF biogs which I had on my list but will now remove. PR had nothing but derision for these two whom he had personally commanded and lost respect for in the field. Seems reasonably supportive of AM and CR though.
Presume this book has been discussed before, can anyone give me a page number?
>>By camban (Monday, 10 May 2004 13:28)
camban:
>Well, I have the answers now. Just read The Eye of The Storm by Peter Ratcliffe, the last third of the book being about A10 >patrol, what an uplifting tale, really enjoyed it.
Then I suppose you've also read Sabre Squadron (Cameron Spence) and Victor Two (Victor "Yorky" Crossland) ?
>>By ortlieb (Monday, 10 May 2004 15:02)
Thanks Ortlieb, those were the two books heavily rubbished by Peter Ratcliffe; are you suggesting I should read them anyway?
Why do you make the comment? Do you find them more accurate?
Suppose this could be the officer versus men problem?
>>By camban (Monday, 10 May 2004 15:47)
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