Andy Mcnab
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I have a message from a mutual friend for Ortlieb on the subject of Kelly's trauma.
Message begins:
Albeit the research via the Internet is relative to "some" of what a severely traumatised seven year old might have experienced, nevertheless the majority of the data is generalised and has no relevance to the kind of trauma the character (Kelly) would have endured: re multiple horrors of brutal killings and cannibalistic scenario as painted by Ortlieb.
A seven year old (unless mentally retarded) is quite capable of understanding the consequences of the above scenario, and Kelly would have harboured no illusions to the finality of death all around her, same as children in war situations know they are either alive, suffering physical hell (remember the infamous image of Vietnamese girl burnt by Napalm) in mental torment, or all three combined.
Whereas, the death of loved ones in bed/hospital etc can be viewed (by parental influence and religious undertones) as going to heaven and "child logic" of Jesus Christ risen from the dead often leads to hope of a return of loved ones, and rightly small children often appear unaffected by loss of loved ones and come to terms with reality as light dawns.
Delayed mourning in Kelly's case would be highly unlikely, her grief would have been such that Nick's conduct alone would have been unforgivable in her eyes for a very long time. In the short-term her trauma would have been so intense anyone would have been dead lucky to have coaxed her and led her away from the carnage without resistance, and thereafter maybe not a word passing her lips for weeks, months, possibly longer without professional help.
__________________
Re A-I-Bs research:
- Often believe that death is reversible, temporary/
*not in Kelly's case*
- May perceive death as a punishment /
*Wouldn't relate to that aspect (Kelly) until quite some time after the incident if relevent to her thoughts prior to.*
- Magical thinking that wishes come true (such as guilt that they had negative feeling toward the person who died, and that was the cause of death) /
*again wouldn't surface in Kelly's case until any sense of rationale over Nick's cannibalistic actions, and of all that she witnessed his actions would have been the most abhorrent and alien and the least easy to come to terms with.*
____________________
In truth (reality) Nick would have held an element of detached morbid fascination to the child despite everything that had happened, but the chances of him being the one she would have looked to for support is very slim indeed, in fact the chances are she would have allied with a female, because in circumstances of that kind men were the instigators of the violence and even if her real dad had not been a victim (supposition here because I've not read the book) he would have gone through hell trying to persuade her that he was different than the perpetrators of the horrendous violence - case histories kicking around to back that theory. Hence she would have shrunk away from physical contact with males, wouldn't necessarily let a female too close to begin with either, (locked in) and Nick would always be an alien element and likely catalyst to excessive nightmares/flashbacks.
Sorry, don't buy your amateur analysis, A-I-B.
>>By readit (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 02:18)
Please excuse bad manners above should have read: message for Ortlieb from buddy gratis friend in Geneva.
>>By readit (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 02:30)
Woah, did I miss something? Where did the cannibalism reference come from? (I think there's a big difference between biting the skin of one's attacker in self defense and deliberately eating human flesh!)
And where's that next BULLIES vs BABES installment? We need something to lighten the atmosphere here! Quick!
>>By Majorette (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 04:24)
Greedy greedy Majorette ;o)
So you should be... but I won't reveal why just yet.
Hi Read-it, nice starter !
Say hi to the mutual friend. Don't you and Ortlieb have something in common?
>>By Lynn (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 08:28)
Awww, come on now…
I came home from work last night all geared up for Bs vs Bs, MC, P2. Should we send out search and rescue teams to find you guys?
Fanx, Ortlieb…
I’ll tell Tabby you referred me. And maybe she can help me work on my vbg!’s and my vbw!’s, too, cuz I seem to have a problem asserting them effectively.
Forgot to mention earlier, too, that I think you’re right about Nick's injury. When I originally read that part, I got sidetracked wondering more in terms of concussion, but it does seem likely that such a blow would cause a tear requiring stitches or at least a small swarm of butterflies*…
(*butterfly: a small piece of adhesive tape, with broad, wing-shaped ends, used to approximate the edges of a superficial wound)
Welcome, Readit…. (or Hello again ?)
I’m a bit confused (that's nothing new tho!) -- you know a-i-b, but do I know you?
No probs on not buying my amateur analysis cuz actually it really wasn’t mine to sell (“sources:”) -- I just borrowed it so Ortlieb would be impressed with me… :o)
Your input please, Tabby…
Re: Kelly, of course! (I’ll call your office to set up that appt for my OCRD issues.)
{Whispered} So sorry, Majorette…
Just had to ask Tabby – she did promise and inquiring minds want to know...
Uh-oh, Lynn...
Are you sending secret subliminal messages? "greed-y"?
>>By am-i-binned (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 10:16)
hey... im still quite new here...
i have seen in previous comments.
VBG?
VBW?
what do these stand for...(or is it just AIB talking S**T)
>>By Yes-Man (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 10:29)
VBG: Very Big Grin
VBW: Very Big Wink
>>By ortlieb (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 10:52)
Oh, so sorry, Yes-Man...
Might be forgetting a few, but here are some of the acronyms you might see here:
vbg = very big grin
vbw = very big wink
sff = serious finger flubs
bftf = brain faster than fingers
nps = no problems
LOL = laugh out loud
ROFL = rolling on floor laughing
ROFLMHO = ROFL my head off
ROFLMAO = ROFL my arse off
TMI = too much information
:o)
>>By am-i-binned (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 11:15)
Welcome readit, even if I say it myself.
You would remember me A-I-B as Andre. My name is Andy but thought that wouldn't go down too well considering attempts by Andy's to surface here.
I have asked this question elsewhere this morning and received lots of VBG VBWs and answers like 'You tell me' etcetera. So I will address myself to the board.
As I understand it book forums are for discussing books and the authors who write them, is that not so? Then why is it seeming offensive to talk shop here. I don't understand the empty boxes which have hidden readable text. It is possible to talk shop and not reveal too much of a plot to spoil it for others people as you can see from other book forums.
The big questions I have is why does this forum have a lot of sketches by board members. Seasonal pary fun would seem appropriate but not ad infinitum.
Are you frustrated script-writers?
Are you not content enough to talk about your favourite author?
Does he not fulfil your desires sufficiently as a fiction writer? If not and I cannot see many references to his later books I am wondering if latterly he no longer thrills you in the way Bravo Two Zero did.
Perhaps I should not have asked the last question for your script-writing suggests you are bored with Nick Stone as a character. Your script-writing although great fortitude shown it suggests sense of desperation to keep the board alive if by no other means than that of self-production and reproduction of character flow.
Intriguing characters come
intriguing characters go
and the few who remain
lost in a world all their own
>>By readit (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 11:47)
There's one thing that's always seemed strange to me reading SAS-books (not exclusive to AM).
SAS ops in Northern Ireland always envolve fighting against the PIRA (the Provisional Irish Republican Army). But where is the "main" IRA ? I don't that "IRA without the P" has ever been mentioned at all... ?
>>By ortlieb (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 11:53)
Are you familiar with a reference first seen in medical psychiatric teaching journals and now used as a joke of International scale. However there is much to be read from that quote:
Psychotics build castles in the air, neurotics live in them, and psychiatrists charge them rent.
>>By readit (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 11:53)
I have been given to understand the above quote is in reference to
Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and other. Known to afflict movie stars and those who aspire to movie star status .
It involves creation of own world and becomes paramount to daily existance or death may occur in suicidal terms to ensure fame if but for a moment in time.
>>By readit (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 12:05)
I served in NI, one could say the shadow of Andy McNab.
PIRA Provisional Irish Republican Army accountable for every offshoot organisation, meaning loose term for renegade forces (sometimes temporarily unidentified force members) under the umbrella IRA Irish Republican Army.
One British military unit might know as in recognise a PIRA squad while another BMU wouldn't know shit about them. Meantime several intel units would be scuttling around, some in the know some not and some about to take the offensve against their own unknowns...It was a shit place to operate in.
>>By readit (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 12:19)
readit:
<Meantime several intel units would be scuttling around, some in the know some not and some about to take the offensve against their own unknowns...It was a shit place to operate in.>
Ken Connor says the same thing in Ghost Force. 14 Int, RUC, 22 SAS etc. operating at the same time, but keeping their playing cards close to their chests, neither part willing to coordinate their moves due to internal competition and prestige...
>>By ortlieb (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 12:52)
From earlier "...book forums are for discussing books and the authors who write them, is that not so?"
P hats all round then...
>>By bikergirl (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 12:52)
bikie!
Kinda shooting yourself in the foot there.... ?
Last time I checked, B.A.B.E.S. was neither a book or an author who wrote it. ;)
>>By ortlieb (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 12:55)
Day 2: Mountain Challenge – part 2
Pen-Y-Fan 02.43pm
BABES are way ahead of BULLIES.
Of course BULLIES have one big advantage: they had Jack Bauer who trained them to go on for 24 hours without a pee nor food. But then: he did not train them on a mountain.
Bo: I’m starving and need to take a pee!!! F*ck Bauer!
Lynn likes the idea. And agrees, she needs to pee too. She gets the Dutch P-mates from her bergen. DF looks interested but doesn’t get one. They soon find a suitable place: all 3 pee to a tree. However, by the sound of it, the tree does not agree.
Tree: F*CK F*CK F*CK, WHAT THE H*LL ARE YOU DOING !!
Bo & L & DF: Mac !!!????
Bo (frowning): why are you dressed as a tree ??
M: YOU said I was gonna be TREE !!
Bo: NUMBER 3!! I meant you were gonna be guy number 3 !!!
Mac looks pissed but is happy to get out of his wet-tree-suit.
Meanwhile, AIB, followed like a shadow by her PA Deusrexmachina is in a hurry to get to AM. Since AIB finds the name Deusrexmachina unpronounceable she has decided to call him Doublepolicedogproductmaker- FormalyKnownAsDeusrexmachina. To get the PA job he needed a few operations (176 – most traumatic one was where they amputated the Duck) and now he is the spitting image of AM.
AIB (annoyed for almost slipping on yet another gob): “I need a McNab, make the call !!”
D tries to find the cell phone. The latest Samsong model “Call me call me any anytime” (only available for Blondies) is small as a stamp and it wouldn’t be the first time he posted it. Of course it’s in his handbag.
D (careful since the phone wire usually strangles him) does as ordered and hands over the phone to AIB.
AM:” Where the H*aven are you???”
AIB:“ Waiting for my ride??? (looks furious at D.)
AM: Then what are you doing over there? Get your butt over here. Rest of you too.
AIB: (sweet as pie): In a minute love!!
On the Pen-Y-Fan Lynn waves at two ….eeerrr….. guys who pass them barefoot on their way down.
Borisette looks funny when she asks Lynn: “Do you know those guys??”
L (nodds): “Yeah, remember a while back I partied with Viggo and Sean?”
Bo (enthusiastic): “ Wow, I was green!!!”
L: “ Well….when the mystery taxi left……” .
Bo: “ ……..Merry and Pippin ???????”
Lynn smiles sheepish.
to be continued
>>By B.U.L.L.I.E.S (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 13:08)
COMMERCIAL BREAK !!
SOON IN YOUR THEATERS !! ORDER YOUR TICKETS NOW. CALL +44 (20) 7288 6699
AND WATCH ANDY MCNAB TAPDANCE IN “IMMEDIATE ACTION - THE MUSICAL”
>>By B.U.L.L.I.E.S (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 13:09)
Finally AIB arrives at a secret safehouse, located 5-7 St. Mary Street, Cardiff (fifth floor) and is softtalking to Hockey Stick while waiting for AM to get out of the bathroom, which might take a while by the sound of it.
AIB (shocked): “Ooooh really?? That is awful !!”
HS (whispers, almost in tears): “yeah….. nothing they can do about Parkinson’s really.”
Both shake their heads in utter sympathy..
AIB: “So…. eeerrr.. .he……eeerrr…. keeps nodding ‘No’ now??”
HS (depressed): “Isn’t it awful…. A No-Nodding Yes-Man !!”
Finally AM comes out of the bathroom and both AIB and HS are impressed with the way he styled his hair with the blow-drier.
Back at the Pen-Y-Fan.
Bo: “We really need a plan!! I want to win this!!”
L: “I got a plan! Do you know HP??”
Bo & DF & Mac (shocked): “Hard Porn !!!???”
L (amazed): “Harry Potter !!”
All know Lynn is insane but she keeps confirming it.
L: “HP had a Polyjuice Potion to transform. Bo and I will transform into BABES, Mac distracts the real BABES and we kidnap CR, if he thinks we are his girls it’s a piece of cake. BABES will be lost without their Golden Boy!”
Bo: “Good plan. One problem. The Potion took a 100 days to make”
L (can’t believe hearing something so stupid): “In the book it is !!! “
Indeed, it takes Lynn only a couple of minutes and BULLIES throw the Potion down their necks. Of course.. nothing happens. (What did you think ??!?!)
Bo: “Mac, you catch up with BABES, keep them occupied and we just use brute force on CR”
M: “ Sure Babe!” (gets slapped by Bo.) “ Sure Love! I’m gonna show them the limbs I would not want to lose in combat.” He winks and leaves.
Nightfall.
All goes according to plan. Mac has caught up with BABES and succeeds in stalling them and has CR pouting.
Lynn, Borisette and DF, wearing camcream, nightgoggles and camouflaged flip-floppers slowly approach the BABES camp. They hide themselves behind an empty barn.
DF (whispering): “This is an empty barn, Lynn go and check inside”
Bo and DF look at each other and roll their eyes backwards.
Lynn starts crawling silently towards the empty barn, checks inside and after 1 min comes back.
L (whispering): “There's nothing in it!”
Now all 3 lurk at the BABES camp. They see B, BG and CR looking at Mac in awe as he is using his Latex covered limbs (his hands!!!) to make shadowfigures against the rocks.
B & BG & CR : “Aaaaaaaaaaaw!”
Mac : “Look… now I'll do a rabbit,........ now a cat...........and here’s a mouse!”
DF to BULLIES : “Stand by - Stand by! I'll give the signal!” (starts whistling the tune of STAR WARS)
BABES and CR are totally bedazzled by Mac so they don't notice.
Suddenly a Dark figure appears (alias Orty)
Bo : “It's Darth Bader!”
L: “You mean Dark Vader”
DF : “Yeah I told you I get back up. This time we MUST win!! (frowning angrily)
L : “But that's cheating”
DF : “Noo, he will neutralise the BABES with his secret weapon, Mac will hang onto CR, and in the meantime….it’s BULLIES to the RV !!!” (grins maniacally)
Orty shows his secret weapon.
L: (blushing) “OOh my g...ggoddd, you never told us about "THAT", and it even glows!”
Bo: (shaking her head) “Com'on Lynn stop staring at his thing! and let's get moving!”
Orty jumps in-between Mac and the BABES, shows his secret thing......ZAA ZAAA!
B & BG : “wooooooow, aaaaaaaaaah!” (eyes and jaws falling open, stiffed to the ground)
Mac grabs CR : “Remember me pet?” (and they run of towards the bushes)
DF (yelling): “GO GO GO !!!!!!!!!!!!!”
Majorette jumps in (singing): “You called me sailor (and starts jumping up and down, holding her pom poms up his face)
Borisette and Lynn go for it: “TALLYHOOOOOO ! HERE WE GOOOOO !!!!!!!!”
Will BULLIES win this time ?
Is Majorette the BABES secret weapon holding DF away from the BULLIES?
Are BABES and BULLIES lost without their men?
What happened to AIB and AM ? (will she have left him because of his new hairstyle?)
Will Orty glow in the dark forever?
And look out for the Mac and CR spin off !!!!
This.. and more: Next time in BABES VS BULLIES
>>By B.U.L.L.I.E.S (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 13:09)
>Orty shows his secret weapon
Not so secret now...so...the pictures should be published...
>>By bikergirl (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 13:37)
ooops missed a bit...
"B & BG : ...stiffed to the ground..."
Now this may have lost something in the translation, but I think we know for sure what the secret weapon is now <vbw>
>>By bikergirl (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 13:42)
"Psychotics build castles in the air"
Which they get to via the stairway to heaven......
Hello readit. Sorry couldn't resist, start the discussion ball rolling then boyo... I only liked the second half of dark winter, did you like the whole thing?
>>By Bethan (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 13:53)
How can u only like the second half of DW...
i think it was ace from S to F...
Second best novel so far, after RC...
Lib Day a close 3rd
>>By Yes-Man (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 14:21)
How can u only like the second half of DW...
Because the cutting and pasting bugged the hell out of me. Petty but true. A hard task master obviously.... I made the clicking seem okay after that!! (LD not DW!)
>>By Bethan (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 14:42)
Andy McNab books:
Dark Winter was passable as entertaining. Inevitable repeat structure made for quick turnover to meet publisher deadline. Not exactly a page turning thrill a minute. That could be to do with too much author time spent chasing movie dreams, raising profile etcetera that all authors desperate for publicity have to undertake to keep their names in the press.
Liberation Day entailed pace and smart chapter structure combined with excellent plot and kept the pages turning. Anyone up for discusssing the book?
Last Light followed similar pattern to Crisis Four. Love line, maybe, then crunch, and maybe again, ending with a who knows cliff-hanger of Carrie waiting in wings. Wet character that Carrie unlike spunky Sara. Discussion anyone?
A one up one down pattern has emerged with alternate Andy McNab books. You love them or end up indifferent wondering what went wrong.
Ortlieb, me old son, you hit nail on head with Ken Connor hammer.
It's a shame F-Troop killed off the message board at:
http://www.allreaders.com/Topics/Topic_5619.asp
Good book reviews over there and the message board was all about Andy McNab and SAS stuff. Got the distinct impression F-Troop's retreat was a well-planned operation of girl power. Too many Allreader blokes, too much SAS knowledge, and not all favouring Andy McNab. To be expected of some SAS and ex SFOs who know him.
What's with all the B.U.L.L.I.E.S & B.A.B.E.S jargon?
What is their objective?
Do they have priority over all things McNab?
What happened to all the experts on SFO SOPs and all the professional bodies in the psychoanalysis field?
Ortlieb's Kelly piece is a classic kick-off for discussion, so where are the Andy McNab book enthusiasts? Do they exist, LOL VBW VBG?
Yes Man, what made it Ace from S to F for you?
I am doing my best here to talk Andy McNab and his books. I don't want to read about Bullies & Babes taking the piss big time out of McNab and other SAS authors.
Are Bullies & Babes intent on major insult to the professionalism of McNab and the SAS in general? From where I am sitting you look to be doing a damn good character assassination job on McNab and the reg!
>>By readit (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 16:02)
Does anyone think Dark Winter was more than re-run structure of Remote Control, taking into account overall storylines?
>>By readit (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 16:05)
Is it possible for B.U.L.L.I.E.S & B.A.B.E.S to have their own message board?
Can the abovementioned not leave the McNab board to McNab enthusiasts, and let those who wish to say no they didn't like certain aspects of specific books, and yes they loved that bit etcetera?
>>By readit (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 16:12)
readit wrote:
I am doing my best here to talk Andy McNab and his books. I don't want to read about Bullies & Babes taking the piss big time out of McNab and other SAS authors...
...Can the abovementioned not leave the McNab board to McNab enthusiasts, and let those who wish to say no they didn't like certain aspects of specific books, and yes they loved that bit etcetera?
Why can't this board have a little of both? If you don't want to read some of the posts, then use the little scroll bar to the right of the screen. It's very handy.
Unfortunately, the scroll bar isn't as effective for glossing over spoilers. That's what the spoiler boxes are for and I appreciate those. I have not been able to read Liberation Day or Dark Winter yet because they aren't widely available in the States and I don't want to have the plot revealed to me before I can get my hands on the books.
Now, regarding Kelly's reaction in Remote Control, I found it plausible. Yes there are case studies out there that show other victims avoiding men, attaching to women, etc, but remember a case study is just that: one case (i,e, sample size = exactly one person). As a non-psychiatrist with absolutely no background in PTSD, I wasn't too bothered by her reaction. Besides, McNab gives more attention to her psyche in later books and I appreciate that.
>>By Majorette (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 18:17)
The "...abovementioned..." are McNab enthusiasts...
"...those who wish to say..." are able to do just that...
It's a dynamic environment...why should any one person be able to determine the way it evolves?
>>By bikergirl (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 18:18)
Readit...
I cant understand where the similarities are between RC and DW
Main Story:-
RC = PIRA and DEA messup that tries to kill kev and ends up a family friend(nick) trying to save a kid...
DW = A terrorist attack on 3 different countries at the same time where nick has to save millions of people from DW...
To me they sound fairly different
>>By Yes-Man (Wednesday, 14 Jan 2004 18:43)
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