Andy Mcnab
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>>By brianBJJ (Sunday, 28 Aug 2005 16:27)
Dear Jon,
Have you began or have for sometime been listening to Air America?
That Al Frankin is a funny SOB!
If the above two answers are yes, why did you not warn me before we met in Philly to sweel beer and watch your beloved Braves beat my Phillies?
>>By Broker (Sunday, 28 Aug 2005 17:54)
.More hurricane news--they're setting up shelters for those too poor to have cars and thus evacuate the New Orleans area. Strange, since the same poor people have no access to health care. Why save them from the hurricane just so they can die of other causes? Seems to me, since we Americans have decided that convenient health care for the middle class is more important than ANY health care for the poor, we should take advantage of this storm and get rid of some of these burdens on our wealthy taxpayers. A gift horse, you know...
In other news, the government being formed in Iraq is a shining example of democracy at work, assuming you're not a woman or a secular muslim. Women in the U.S. may not know their place, but they sure as hell will in Iraq thanks to the Iranian-style Islamic law being written into the Iraqi constitution. I personally don't care if it takes ten thousand dead Yank soldiers, as long as those brazen Iraqi hussies cover their faces with a proper burqua.
I know, I used to say politics don't belong here--as a man of science, though, I'm willing and happy to admit I was wrong. Andy McNab represents government at its most basic--Mao's "barrel of a gun." Poor Andy admits he had no real idea of the right or wrong of, say, the Irish problem, yet he prided himself on carrying out the orders of those who were most likely more amoral than he was. His pride in joining the SAS is actually quite similar to the accounts of the "house niggers" of the antebellum South, the top slaves. I can imagine it, "Massuh gave me a beige beret!"
Let's do right by those who want to serve and protect us--don't send them to kill without a formal declaration of war, take care of their low-income relatives, and realize that the big contribution they can make is in their selflessness--imagine what minds like the crafty bastards in the SAS could do if applied to something other than being political hit squads.
Yeah, I know. Poof. Fuck it.
>>By Just Jon (Sunday, 28 Aug 2005 18:00)
Ah Jeez Jon,
You belong here, perfectly. Please MG don't poof him. He's igniting a much needed spark to my back to school doldrums.
Gosh you are a funny bastard Jon.
>>By Broker (Sunday, 28 Aug 2005 18:48)
Wow.. and you lot didn't even think of opening the champagne? Happy 250 to those who didn't have life enough to be lost anywhere along the road.
What's this BJJ ? His last piece? You mean last as in final?
>>By Lynn (Sunday, 28 Aug 2005 19:34)
Ouch, sorry Jon - saw 250 and went sort of blind (I blame the weekend alcohol). Didn't read your post - uhm.. was he being funny DTO? It sounds serious.
>>By Lynn (Sunday, 28 Aug 2005 22:39)
Who's DTO, Lynn?
Some "dork", or what?
Uhmm.... I don't think Jon was being one bit funny Lynn. He's one serious dude. World Wide popularity, has given him Andy McNab type commercialism. Go Jon go!!!!
>>By Broker (Monday, 29 Aug 2005 00:41)
Hi All, bit early I know but does anyone who is based in the UK or abroad for that matter know of any stores that will be stocking signed copies of AM's new book in November? I know it's best to prepare early as they tend to go for a fortune on places like Ebay.
I was looked after last time for Deep Black by a good chap on here (wont reveal his name) and just wondered if I had missed any talk. Also before I get some shut eye, does anyone know when 'Traitor' is due to be released, the new one after Boy Soldier?
Thanks all and keep well :)
>>By Big G (Monday, 29 Aug 2005 01:19)
Ok I have answered myown Q regarding 'Traitor' I see it's 6th October '05 :D
>>By Big G (Monday, 29 Aug 2005 01:22)
Yes lynn no more mail on sunday articles i'm wearing black i cant believe it i only bought the paper once a week for andy's column...
>>By brianBJJ (Monday, 29 Aug 2005 01:38)
Oh thanx BJJ, I wonder why there won't be more.
Broker, I have no idea, I blame the alcohol for that one too, a dreadful case of mistaken identity
Hi back Big G. You didn't miss any talk yet, we hope there will be (good) news soon.
Traitor is not the 2nd in Boy Soldier series, it's the US title (?) for Boy Soldier. The next in BS series will be Payback, which should be out
on October 6 indeed. As Traitor also.
Notice they're selling Traitor & Payback as a package. I suppose they want to get rid of "Boy Soldier' (for title) - it seems there's quite some sensitivity in book titles lately.
>>By Lynn (Monday, 29 Aug 2005 09:18)
Woo-hoo! 250! Who wudda thunk?!?
Re: Signed copies
Will check and advise. Hopefully, AM will be available for a repeat performance (personalized dedications!!!) like he did for us with Deep Black -- seeing as how he may have a bit more spare time now that he's gonna be freed up from writing those Sun articles...
And speaking of AM having spare time...
Hey, Just Jon, do you think it's maybe time for another Grey Man's Land interview??? (I hope, I hope!) Want us to start pulling together some questions for you? (hint, hint!... err... or is that more of a shove, shove?)
And speaking of Just Jon...
How do you do that, JJ?!? -- speak so clearly with your tongue in your cheek? ;oP
And speaking of being Broker...
Send that check, boy-o, and we won't reveal your secret identity! Oh wait, uhm, nevermind.... ;o)
>>By am-i-binned (Monday, 29 Aug 2005 16:24)
Tongue in cheek? Is that what that was?
I'm glad to hear it, as I was having trouble figuring out who the following statement insults more: rightfully outraged victims of slavery, or the rightfully proud recipients of that beige beret.....
<<His pride in joining the SAS is actually quite similar to the accounts of the "house niggers" of the antebellum South, the top slaves. I can imagine it, "Massuh gave me a beige beret!">>
>>By Majorette (Monday, 29 Aug 2005 16:45)
Re: Tongue in cheek...
At first blush, yes, Majorette, it might sound like it's meant to be insulting -- but try re-reading it tho, only this time imagine Dennis Miller saying it. They (Special Forces) are the best of the best, I think we all agree, no question, but the real question is: are they being utilized or are they being used?
>>By am-i-binned (Monday, 29 Aug 2005 19:31)
It's hardly an appropriate comparison.
In one case, we are talking about people being enslaved by another race, forced to work hard labor, and made to submit in every way imaginable- a degrading and reprehensible position to put somebody in.
In the other, we are talking about men who voluntarily signed up for military service and willingly sought out a position in one of the more elite forces- a personal choice with a certain degree of honor associated with it.
To imply that the pride that comes with earning a winged dagger is somehow akin to the "pride" a slave might feel at avoiding the whip by kissing up to their slavemaster, both belittles the plight of the slave and insults the personal choices made by the soldier.
>>By Majorette (Monday, 29 Aug 2005 20:15)
I think Jon meant to 'shock' in a way people say 'BOOO' - I mean.. anyone can say BOOO, but it's HOW you say it. Doesn't necessarily mean everyone agrees with BOOO or understands BOOO.
Understand?
>>By Lynn (Monday, 29 Aug 2005 21:41)
I don't
>>By Lynn (Monday, 29 Aug 2005 21:42)
But I do understand Jon
>>By Lynn (Monday, 29 Aug 2005 21:44)
Maj, believe it or not, we're on the same side when it comes to the men and women in our military. The slave comparison was indeed meant to shock, but I think it's also valid in that these honorable soldiers did not volunteer to be lied to, nor to go to fight in a war the effect of which has been to make the U.S. and U.K. LESS safe. They are all being used as living, breathing Action Man toys by a power-mad elite who themselves were afraid to fight when called upon. The SAS, being the best, are therefore "priviliged" in the same way the house slaves were. I know most soldiers would like to kick my ass for saying that, but better I get my ass kicked than more of these guys die for no reason.
I'm not a hippy (okay, I am, but that's beside the point)--I fully support the war in Afghanistan, and I don't expect those serving in Iraq to disobey orders and refuse to fight. What I do expect is for those serving to ask themselves who has their interests at heart--country music stars who right jingoistic ballads about them while sending them off to die with nary a second thought, or effete liberals who think that maybe we should be damned sure we're right before we start fitting them for body bags.
It's not me dishonoring the SAS, it's the people who use them so callously.
>>By Just Jon (Tuesday, 30 Aug 2005 07:08)
Jon, I'm not quite sure how you getting your ass kicked will prevent the pointless deaths of our soldiers; perhaps you are mistaken about your crucial role in world events. *yawn*
>>By FearsomeTab (Tuesday, 30 Aug 2005 12:48)
...errr... maybe "ass kicking" is a Southern-ism for "wishful thinking"... ;o)
>>By am-i-binned (Tuesday, 30 Aug 2005 15:01)
Fearsome Tab--I said that I preferred getting my ass kicked to more people dying, I didn't say the one would prevent the other. The beauty of it is, you warons can have both! Kent State, anyone?
>>By Just Jon (Tuesday, 30 Aug 2005 15:55)
First, let me say that Jon and I are friends and we've had several discussions on these topics, so he shouldn't be surprised by my reaction. I enjoy reading his stuff and I like to hear his point of view. Doesn't mean I always agree with what he says, or how he delivers it. But I want to make it clear that my criticism is not a personal attack on him.
Having said that, I still very strongly disagree with the comparison Jon made between elite soldiers and slaves. I know, I know, I'm nitpicking, but you chose to bring it up, Jon, so now you have to deal with it.
Here we go: I am uncomfortable with the broad brush you have chosen to use in describing SAS (and, I am assuming, all Special Forces) personnel. Your first post compares them to house slaves, and then your subsequent post clarified it to mean that they were being used against their will. You suggest that had they known what their skills were going to be used for, they never would have agreed to it in the first place.
By doing this you have placed YOUR values above THEIRS and implicitly called into question 1) their intelligence and 2) their morals.
You say you drew the comparison to shock, but I don't see the revelation. I know you don't really believe that every man in an elite combat unit signed up because they wanted to spread sunshine throughout the world. Maybe some did, but I'm betting some just like to blow shit up. My point is, the job description is fairly clear and I don't think these men are as naive in their understanding of global politics or their place in it as you would paint them. I'll bet a good portion of them knew that a) You can't trust politicians, b) You might get sent to war and asked to do not-so-nice things, and c) You might not even agree with that war or those things that you are asked to do. They still signed up. They have their reasons.
Whether you portray them as beaten-down slaves who have learned the hard way never to question their master, or as naive, child-like innocents who only wanted to make the world a better place and are now forced to use their powers for evil, I'm betting some of them might take issue with your comparisons.
But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe grown men who wear the uniform appreciate having non-military citizens subtely call into question their ability to make decisions, both intellectually and morally, but somehow I doubt it.
----------
PS- Next time you're up North I'll give you that ass-kicking you're looking for, Jon ;-)
>>By Majorette (Tuesday, 30 Aug 2005 16:42)
Man Maj, you are one tough Mom. It is very good thing I did not search for you this summer when I was in town. God only knows what harm you may have done.
I am laughing at your last line.
Good discussins folks, I wish I were smarter, but you know what they sat about Jarheads.
>>By Broker (Tuesday, 30 Aug 2005 17:47)
Not really Broker but I know what we say about you ;-)
>>> My point is, the job description is fairly clear
This is just one story, for how many would this line apply though?
"Before enlisting, *** said he was searching for some meaning in his life, and the military--which had a "higher purpose"--was better than working just for the sake of making a buck. "I guess I just kind of sold my soul for the college money," he said. "That's probably a little too blunt. I had this notion that, "Hey, I'm going to go and get paid to exercise, shoot weapons and jump out of planes,' and that sounded real fun. It didn't matter to me at that point. I was just young, and I didn't feel I was really going anywhere."
In AM's books he tells us they wait eagerly for 'their' war. I'm wondering how many are willing to give up their nightmares now.
Do they really all fully realise what they get into? No regrets? Ever?
How can you know what it's like being in a war when you've never been in one before?
Since they have a choice to leave the military (not counting those who have few other options, with families to be fed, rent or mortgages to pay, education low and jobs scarce) you could not call them slaves.
How about lambs to the slaughter? ;-)
>>By Lynn (Tuesday, 30 Aug 2005 19:02)
Oh, btw... if you make that choice.. to get out... make sure you do that before you are ordered to go to war:
"The maximum penalty for deserting in wartime is death. But it's more typical for a soldier to draw a sentence of five years or less for deserting in wartime."
>>By Lynn (Tuesday, 30 Aug 2005 19:20)
Eek thanks Lynn, guys how much have I let you down with poor knowledge... Im ashamed!!
Im blaming Amazon!!
Seriously though I have a feeling Mr Stone may seek revenge on his 'superiors' in the next saga for some strange reason, kind of always wanted him to go fill 'whats he me called' in..
Damn it's too late, the names gone astray !!
Ps I have a confession... a few months ago the pennies were a touch stretched & I looked at my wonderful collection of signed AM books, looked at the Ebay front page & thought.... er na you just can't do that! You will & I am, be pleased to know I didn't :D
>>By Big G (Wednesday, 31 Aug 2005 01:07)
The thing of it is that every man's motivation is different, every tour of duty is different, every man's reaction to being in war is different. If you read the biogs of SAS men, or of those who were in 'Nam, the Falklands, the Balkans, Northern Ireland, even WW2, they all have differing experiences and reactions. The point is that to generalise is to miss the point; that's what is wrong with law for example, in so many cases, one person's occasional joint is another's mental hell, one person's occasional drink is another's alcoholism, do you see? So just don't generalise.
>>By camban (Wednesday, 31 Aug 2005 11:38)
Maj, I prefer to argue with idiots, damnit! Can't you send in a less-intelligent substitute to argue with me?
Your point about the men in the SAS is well taken. With the exception of Chris Ryan (who wanted to knife every civilian the B20 patrol encountered), though, I think that while they're indeed guys who like to "blow stuff up" (hee hee) they do want to know that they're in the right. Andy may say it's just a job and all, but look how evil he makes the government look and how they use Nick Stone, as Lynn pointed out. I don't think Andy came by these themes from reading The Nation. Still, though, I too worried about that, that I might sound as if I think these guys are sheep or idiots. Even if I did, I wouldn't be dumb enough to admit it!
That's enough from me about the Iraq war. No matter what side we're on, none of us wants more dead soldiers, so we can at least agree on that much. I think it's important that civvies have the decency to tell military people that yes, dude, you might be totally wrong about the war, and fighting doesn't give you the right to make policy. If you don't like it, run for office.
As to the ass-kicking from Maj--not only am I afraid to come up there, I'm moving so you can't find me!
>>By Just Jon (Wednesday, 31 Aug 2005 12:01)
Cam, I posted while you were posting. I've had to apologize just yesterday to an SBS vet for my stupid generalisations--wish you'd posted that a couple of days ago! :)
>>By Just Jon (Wednesday, 31 Aug 2005 12:03)
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