Andy Mcnab
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I guess the biggest tree in the world was after all the correct choice for AM to take cover behind.
Now for a quiz
What Does the MI6 exposey (don't even ask where my acute accent has gone) The Big Breach and our old friend Andy McNab have in common? Bikergirl, Bethan and not forgetting Devon Wren I have to ask you all to sit this one out as you have an unfair advantage.
I'll post answer soon.
BTW are short excerpts allowed to be posted in the interest of illustration and education - or will they be poof'd?
Next is one that has always puzzled me - as I fail to understand what it means exactly. Perhaps you all have an answer or at least an learned opinion to share?
C G Jung said "the maintenance of secrets acts like a psychic poison, which alienates their possessor from the community".
What is a psychic poison? And do we agree or disagree with old Jung?
PS I'm no psychologist.
On the cat front Reginald - the points about camouflage, tracking and building hides showed me how much I really have still to learn. I appreciate you and the lads taking time to share some of your knowledge.
One thing that occurred to me - the use of the amber/yellow goggles I saw on the range - do these have some king of magnification benefit or is their another explanation?
The info on sightings you provided is a wonderful supplement to my data and ongoing research and I fully appreciate it.
Hope I didn't bore you and the lads with my ramblings about Black pumas.
>>By Nomad (Thursday, 19 Feb 2004 12:00)
No Scooby, he didn't write it, AM doesn't write his stuff either, if you do some research you will find out that Transworld has a stable of ghost writers, even Tom Clancy uses them, just names on a dust jacket to sell books
DW~~ slam the girlies round here in much the same tone as yourself
dont know why you use such violent images, I would never slam a girl around, maybe you like that kind of stuff, I dont
~~It matters little whether you like AM or hate his bl**dy guts, the plain fact is he's got books out there that are a good read -
dont hate the guy, he sold out, most of us dont, he knows the lies and deceit he perpetuates, that is why he dragged others to do the same, they lived to regret it, unfortunately not long, if you live in the mire, you like to drag others down to your level, makes you feel better. Nish and Frank Collins couldn't live with what they had done, they had a conscience, being ostracised by their mates was too much to bear.
~~The plain fact of the matter of writing is, that anyone can learn the craft ,
or pay someone to do it for them
~~What was your reason for dropping by, SM, and what military books fit in with your "to read list" ? Obviously not AM!
i heard that there was a lot of great literay criticism here, what else,
>>By stevemitch (Thursday, 19 Feb 2004 12:06)
why don't you go and vent your bile elsewhere stevemitch. I'm getting fed up with you.
>>By Nomad (Thursday, 19 Feb 2004 12:21)
Quick drop in for a Bacardi breezer.
B.A.B.E.S.
"Dogs come when you call them. Cats take a message and get back to you."
Stevemitch.
point noted: he sold out, most of us dont.
I didn't, and sympathise with your viewpoint. In the long run McNab is the loser. Try telling that to his fans and you give them a match to set a fire under you arse.
Nomad.
Jung is bud's territory.
see ya, Stateside.
>>By readit (Thursday, 19 Feb 2004 12:22)
Egg & Bacon butty awaits.
>>By readit (Thursday, 19 Feb 2004 12:24)
Then I await bud's analysis readit.
mmmm egg and bacon sounds tempting.
I also apologise if I go over old ground and that's boring - not having Lynn or AIB's encyclopaedic knowlegde of past topics and only having been around since end of last year I hope you will forgive my meanderings.
So what did you write stevemitch?
>>By Nomad (Thursday, 19 Feb 2004 12:52)
A favour to ask, Reginald and Nomad ...
Since your convos look interesting and they're filled with on-topic words (training, camouflage, hides, range, etc. hahaha!), would you share a bit of background and detail? Compulsive curiosity running rampant:
R: ... visit to Camp. ... the info on exotic cats reported on MOD Estates OK. ... me and the boys didn't scare you too much while training ... ?
N: ... the points about camouflage, tracking and building hides ... you and the lads taking time to share some of your knowledge. ... amber/yellow goggles I saw on the range ... ?
>>By am-i-binned (Thursday, 19 Feb 2004 12:57)
Uh-oh, Nomad...
Here since the end of last year and haven't yet spotted F Troop's willingness to repeatedly travel along well-worn paths? Please meander at will, Sir. :o)
>>By am-i-binned (Thursday, 19 Feb 2004 13:19)
Just a quickie, Nomad......(and no, you other lot out there, I mean conversation !!) Damn you guys out there are quick at spotting inuendos.
Yellow tint just aids quicker perception of movement and to a lesser extent, clarifies outlines of objects. It's not standard wear but pays to train with them every now and again. They also look a bit naff. The yanks (pardon my slang, Majorette) frequently use them as a matter of routine.
Egg and bacon butty....mmm......with the yoke slowly bursting through and mixing with the butter on the bread.......a pinch of salt.............mmm...my god.......
>>By Reginald (Thursday, 19 Feb 2004 14:41)
<< you guys out there are quick at spotting inuendos >>
We might be quick at spotting, Reginald, but you obviously thought of it first! LOL!!!! ;oD
>>By am-i-binned (Thursday, 19 Feb 2004 15:19)
Eeerrrrrr.... Reg............
That description of eating the egg and bacon....with all those mmmmmm-ing.... was more stimulating than that conversation with Nomad ;o))
>>By Lynn (Thursday, 19 Feb 2004 15:53)
Lynn! Hat! Corner!
>>By am-i-binned (Thursday, 19 Feb 2004 15:57)
Hey, I'll stay there till the morning if Reg brings me the egg & bacon for breakfast !!
>>By Lynn (Thursday, 19 Feb 2004 15:58)
Gee, Nomad and Reginald, now you’ve got me thinking… (and I’ll be the first to admit that doesn’t happen very often these days… ha ha)
How does the yellow filter improve motion detection? I can see how it would improve contrast (astronomers frequently use yellow filters to improve the contrast when looking at the moon, for example). But how does it help detect motion? I seem to recall from school that motion receptors are primarily in the rods (as opposed to the color-sensitive cones) in the eye. Does the yellow filter enhance the light that the rods are more sensitive to?
Reg, can the goggles be used both day AND night? Are there ever any other colored filters that you use to enhance vision (not talking NVGs here)
OK, I’ll stop being a geek now.
>>By Majorette (Thursday, 19 Feb 2004 16:11)
I quite envisage all the hats available being thrown in my direction including boxes of chalk, but do read this and think about it before responding...
"Psychic Poison"
To clarify PP in layman terms takes much thought, for it's far too easy to just read through Jung's/freud's/Lange's et al theories (to remind one of the differentials of learnings) and avoidance of "copy-pasted material" with personal add ons...
Men are essentially "clubable animals", whether they went to state sponsored or public schools, they will join the Garrick or follow Arsenal or Man U etc. Rotarians or members of the local tennis club/Andy McNab forum (whatever) gather together because they have common interests, but, and it's a big but, for many it is a need to feel belonging to (whatever) and the receipt of favourable overtones from other members. Of course, some people join a a club purely to advance their careers/social standing. After all, group membership brings many benefits in to otherwise mundane/routine daily existance, not least that of ensuring support for their own beliefs, not least political; Tory/LibdDem/Lab UK, Reps/Dems USA, and effectively become a member of chosen in-group.
Basically men tend toward a middle ground position with minority factions left or right, changeable only by leadership slant toward extreme left or right, yet still airing closer to safe middle ground deployment.
Now take group behaviour and "women" within exclusive/tennis clubs political environs (Maggie Thatcher" and lady members of the Andy McNab forum, plus private school establishment behavioural practise, which encompasses most of the above aforementioned in male domain: the exception being middle ground. Women don't have middle ground stance, they are much more reliant upon group approval, and if the group attitude lies in one direction (compare success of stiletto heel/stick thin) they will suppress argument going in the other direction, and may be prepared to be more extreme within the group (safety in numbers) because a group reduces individual responsibility.
The members of a womens' group are more confident about correctness of the group's decisions than about that of their own. Such faith in group decisions, which in general are worse than those made by individuals, which arises from the feeling of solidarity given by the group. If all or "most" agree they are collectively convinced they cannot be wrong in their thinking. Women leaders have greater capacity to illusion of invulnerability within group structure, and ignore inconvenient facts; hold stereotyped views of rival or enemy groups whom they regard as evil or weak; individual members attempt to silence dissent from others within the group; each member suppresses her doubts to conform; there is also illusion of uninamity resulting from this suppression; and finally, they protect each other by concealing information from undesirables, obsessively so. When women group entrants submit to a woman leader and the leader selects an internal advisory committee she is unlikely to pick people who have a different viewpoint than that of herself, nor will she select more intelligent or more powerful figures in discussion than herself. To maintain the self-esteem of internal committee women leaders surround themselves with acolytes, thus exacerbating the tendencies already mentioned. The more the members agree with women leaders the more extreme her own attitudes become, hence her followers also are more prone to extreme statements.
Interestingly: Men who displayed similar patterns of extreme leadership to that of women had secret passions for wearing ladies underwear etc.,!!!!!!!!!!
Any how, to the deeper complexity of "Psychic Poison": Jung notes that withholding information leads to the virtue of self-restraint which was one of the earliest moral achievements of man. So be it, and womens' groups have more in common with Masonic Lodges than they'll ever know (the majority of women that is), and when it comes to the base line of "Psychic Poison" there are many instances of it on the AM board.
I guess, for some, even the above will be over their heads, and really "Psychic Poison" is all about secrecy and perceptiion within our lives and need to belong and to be loved. "Jung" pointed out that secrets can act like a "psychic poison" and alienate the individual from a community. On the other hand, they can also save the individual by ensuring that there is some aspect of consciousness which can be differentiated from the community. Secrets have provided a way to belong and also a way to protect individuality since the time of primitive rituals. Mental illness can develop when secrets are not shared at all or when people are not even conscious of their secrets. So in that respect one can see where suicide enters into the equation of people forced to live a secretive life and who subsequently revealed aspects of that secret life (in general terms) which alienated them from their own peer group. Yet, the ones who retain the secrets are equally alienated by those not in that elite peer group.
Of military men who seek help from clinical professionals/psychic gurus etc., therein lies another danger that SF personnel are all too well aware of: being RTU'd or kicked out on medical grounds, hence reluctance to seek help from within the medical structure recognised by the group/institution. There is a belief among some SF guys, that a much higher rate of suicide exist within the ranks of those who sought help from within the establishment they were part of..
>>By devonwren (Thursday, 19 Feb 2004 16:28)
Andy McNab real life. Nick Stone fiction. Both concerned for their personal saftey and life. Deniable Ops. Dark Opps. Etc.
A book I came across with a fellow Florker, Bob Kings...Spooky 8. Also you may try Spooky8.com. This seems like the real thing for a fellow involved with the types of things AM writes about. Only difference American style.
Very intresting. Anybody else read this book?
>>By DTO (Thursday, 19 Feb 2004 19:02)
"So what did you write stevemitch?"
The only time I have written about SF related topics was for a couple of coroners, in fact to be honest, I had a ghost writer - an army lawyer, must be in the blood.
Sometimes a few of us get together and parady the AM stuff, (you guys would hate it, but it makes us laugh and passes the time) and promise ourselves we will write an AM expose, but what the heck, he has to live with himself, That is punishment enough for most of us.
>>By stevemitch (Thursday, 19 Feb 2004 19:44)
"What does the MI6 exposé 'The Big Breach' and our old friend McNab have in common?"
Dunno, Nomad. Go on, give us a clue....
>>By bladwags (Thursday, 19 Feb 2004 20:58)
Thanks to Swedish Reader:
"Broadcasting House spoke to Dennis Bowen, who as an 18 year old, took part in the D-Day landings the writer, Andy McNab, who served with the SAS and was captured by the Iraqis in the first Gulf War and Dr Andrew Murrison"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/news/
bh/dan_damon.shtml
(think it starts somewhere after 13 minutes)
>>By Lynn (Thursday, 19 Feb 2004 22:28)
Well howdy-doody Majorette,
Did you know that if slugs lack vitamin A they turn cannibilistic and eat each other !................anyway, less about my private life...................
To be honest, I'm not a one for biology and certainly not when it comes to the human eye. All I understand is the end result, that the yellow tint enhances the perception of movement (motion) for more rapid target acquisition than that of the normal eye. It's just for day-time use. Concerning our own usage of them, they were introduced not that long ago and were more of a "see what you think" thing than anything else. Some of us like them, some of us don't . For training purposes, one must take into account the need for all possibilities. The A.I. rifle comes hand in hand with it's personalised scope. With the scope, tinted glasses are not really necessary though a few lads (one in particular) wear them - the one in particular I'm sure because he thinks he's a bit cool (I wouldn't say that, after experiencing watching him from close-quarter shovelling down a lamb madras and mainly missing his mouth !)
Training is sometimes implemented with the scope absent (in real time it may be broken so you need to be able to manage the eventuality). More difficult than you think as the A.I. usually has no end-sight so - (constant training is the only way - I think readit will agree) to become acustomed to target acquisition without such a sight. Without scope, this is where yellow tints can be of maximum benefit compared to the naked...............oooh I'm deviating...............OK now..........eye.
Bloody good read devonwren, I mean it.
You'll die for my egg and bacon, Lynn.
Anyway, back to my young whipper snapper........oohhh no, come on you all, give it to me.........no, no........I didn't mean that either..............
I shall just depart !
>>By Reginald (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 09:25)
"Sometimes a few of us get together and parady the AM stuff, (you guys would hate it, but it makes us laugh and passes the time)"
Parady, there's a word I like. Speaking as one half of the nonsense brigade, always ready to take the p*ss, give us an example. Post some nonsense.
>>By Bethan (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 09:39)
Reginald:
A.I ?
stevemitch:
Obviously, there are quite a few ex Reg / military-in-general guys who don't have very high opinions of Andy McNab.
Is the reason him "selling out" on behalf of the Regiment and/or fellow mates in the unit?
Does the same animosity go for the other by-now famous SAS-authors? (Chris Ryan, Cameron Spence, Mike Curtis, Yorky Crossland etc.) ?
>>By ortlieb (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 11:12)
Stevemitch, I meant no disrecspect to your memories or experiences, and I'm not being glib - but coroners reports must make pretty grim reading (and worse to compile/contribute to one imagines), maybe that's why AM hits the mark while you have struggled a bit? HIs writing is not grim, but gritty.
Just my uninformed and personal analysis.
I love parody, is this the same as parady?
I think you need a good dictionary and thesaurus Stevemitch as the first step towards good writing.
>>By Nomad (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 11:49)
Lucky you didn't offer sausage as well Reginald.
We'd have to check it for leech teeth marks first!
>>By Nomad (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 11:52)
Hello bladwags - nice name.
Well it has to do with a visit to Pontrilas.
>>By Nomad (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 11:54)
Damn it Nomad, I wrote parady too! Oh well, the Scots have to win at something my friend....pity it's only a spellling test!!!!!!
No-one knows your answer, I would have thought with the amount of friends he has on here, one of them would guess. Sorry, that's right, they wouldn't be allowed to tell ha ha. Handy.
>>By Bethan (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 12:03)
As we've had a lot of anti McNab input recently it might be worth (for the established "group" of AM supporters) to compare this sense of anger/grief of the newcomers (military/associated to) to that of AM and why he really wrote B20 and follow-up bio orientated books...Discount the fiction books because they're spin-offs of the Andy McNab "company name" same as the teen books will be - he's now a business, a commodity of his own business. I'm not even going to venture into the realms of deprived background Vs untold wealth and the joy that can bring with it, nor am I going to venture into failed marriages, children passed around like pass the pacel for holidays and weekends, though there is a "pattern" to be seen in the direction of failed marriages/relationships...
There are numerous accounts here of AM having said - during interviews - that he remains fairly unaffected by his experiences in Iraq, which included incarceration, and by all acounts damaging physical torture which usually leaves severe scars in the mind, yet he equally claimed the writing of B20 and follow-up bio orientated books as supposedly not the least cathartic... If he truly believes any of that he's deluding himself: the macho image expected of SAS warriors all part and parcel of his business plan and, the ongoing delusion that all is well keeps him aloft while a time-bomb ticks away in the subconscious!
One only has to compare AM to John Nichols (RAF), Terry Waite et al (Beirut hostages) to see the glaring obvious time-bomb ticking away in AM's subconscious. You can still see "pain" reflected in the eyes and demeanour of JN and the Beirut hostages, it's there in AM's too, but he doesn't recognise it in his reflection as they do.... Yes, it will be interesting to see how the Kiwi (S5) will present himself within the book - the sheer determination he's shown in battling it to the bookstands must have felt as though engaged in several rounds of Russian Roulette, and did writing it ease his mind? I guess the proof will be in the reading of soldier 5...In truth, though, the driving factor of S5 appears to be the publication of B20 & TOTGA, CR given much stick over statements about VP, but again you have to think peer pressure on a junior looking to be fully accepted into group: the psychology of it all is complicated.
Had AM written B20 and put it away in a cupboard for a few years he might never have set the AM ball rolling, the initial angst and heartache of betrayal (by immediate superiors) would have lessened by then: facts and figures as always emerging after the event and realism that sacrifices in real war situations are made in the name of overall success. I've said it before and I'll say it again. During the WW2/Korean War, Malasian Crisis, Suez, Cyprus, Aden, Oman etc., men wrote letters home because that was the only communication (excepting odd phone call here and there) with loved ones back home. I'm talking long letters, and for most serving men they were the lifeline (cathartic) that kept them sane. There is a very thin line between sanity and madness of battle weary troops...
Nowadays soldiers tend to rely on hi-tech commnication, but in the long run it's not the same as a paper letter you can carry around in your pocket - letters if kept are a book in themselves and a window to their own minds...Can anyone else remember seeing letters in beribboned bundles belonging to parents and grandparents, not to mention letters of your own stashed away?
Now, back to the nitty-gritty of anti Mcnab newcomers: why should they not voice what they want to say? OK, so, there are some here who don't want to hear or want to know, but is that true for the majority? You see, this where Psychic Poison comes in to play: suppress the intruders and lockdown the shutters of the group, which incites bitchiness...When, in fact, the best approach is to allow the "intruders" to put forth points of comparable order i.e., where McNab has supposedly stolen other troopers stories and which books he has placed said stories in to...After all, this is supposedly a forum for discussing AM books...
Back to AM other SASSBS authors: I can't speak for other people, but in my personal opinion if say SAS/SBS books go belly up due to a shift in public domain reading material I think most of the other authors will shrug their shoulders and think well we had a good run for our money. However, in AM's case I think he watches very closely how well his books are doing, and he's a fighter as well as good self-publicist, I'll grant him that, but if sales of his books suddenly take a turn for the worse he will be devastated, and if that looks likely he'll be thinking about quitting while he's ahead (cut 'n' run) because he can't bear to be seen as a loser, and his stance will be that he started the ball rolling and his leaving the pitch ruined it for everybody else. (delusion)..
That said, and despite worries of the AM group in-crowd that bad publicity on the forum is bad for AM, think again because controversy is what drove B20 & TOTGA into the bestseller lists!
As for Parody, it works for holiday breaks, birthday celebrations and seasonal fun time, but as a few here pointed out it can kill off and frighten away the less talented souls who genuinely want to discuss AM books. Parody all the time? Wouldn't that make this place the laughing nook, the crannies full of dusty book chat!?
>>By devonwren (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 13:05)
No surprises if the above pushes everyone over to page 146 - controversial posts of mine tend to do that....
>>By devonwren (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 13:07)
Thanks for the é bladwags - really appreciate it. You should use this too Stevemitch on the end of your exposé. Don't say I'm not helpful now. But you'll probably say Good spelling never won a war and you'd be right.
Any one else interested in The Big Breach/AM connection?
Not even a guess?
Devon Wren - knew I could rely on you for the in-depth analysis - the earliest moral achievment of man - Learning how to keep the mouth shut. I like it!
I had the psychic poison line in my head for a long time, but until yesterday never knew how to unlock the meaning. Really appreciate your synopsis. You're a bit of a rosetta stone.
And where is bikergirl these days?
If I spell poorly Bethan I blame the keyboard.
I tried one of them verbal recognition thinggies instead of typing - here's the results
I huv gon hi tick toddy becus I cun tulk as fist as I cun tipe - so um yoosing the verball ragugnishion suftwere.
As you can see it isn't very good, so back to two fingers (not a reference to Agincore)
I ask again - are short excerpts (that's a tricky word Bethan) allowed to be posted in the interest of illustration and education - or will they be poof'd?
AIB, Majorette, in relation to my experience of wildlife observation and mammal tracking the following observations might interest you. Blue filtered light is good for snow tracking and I believe for following blood trails.
Maybe you know more about this Orti?
Red filtered light is excellent for assisting with wildlife watching - most mammals seem unphased by red light and you can get really close to hedgehogs with a torch and some red cellophane/ over it.
The benefit of amber/yellow eyeware was unknown to me until Reginald explained. I just thought they were a trendy accessory, if a bit gawdy!
I thought "where's all the Oakleys!" (Now I feel a bit stupid!)
I guess there is a biological explanation but do not know what it is.
See if I can redeem myself - there is a biological reason for the increased perception using the peripheral vision - the rods and cones of the eye that detect coloured or monochrome light - their position allows using periphery of vision to be of great assistance in low light/twighlight conditions when watching wildlife. The image may be black and white but it's much clearer.
>>By Nomad (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 13:08)
Reggie: egg and bacon, and no bangers for the girls? That's sex discrimination!
>>By devonwren (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 13:14)
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