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>>By planet ear (Monday, 4 Sep 2006 23:49)
when i was going through a rather messy divorce and waiting for an army courts martial i had a very close friend for about 18 months his name was 'Ron' .......Bacardi Ron, we were very good freinds indeed and in them 18 months i was late for work very often, but hey i was getting courts martialled so i didn't give a shit, i would sleep during my dinner break, and for a short while before the cookhouse opened for tea and then its 'shit shower shave' and head to my local where i had a bar tab...have a cracking night and back in bed (not always my own) in the wee hours of the morn....
In all them months i raised my voice in anger to someone once, i didnt fight , well i was in my mid thirties at the time and besides i'm a lover not a fighter :-) but i saw stacks of fighting going on, i'd have guys call me a four eyed c*nt just to goad me into a fight, and i'd say 'how astute you are you have captured my character with just one appraisal... well done' and then ignore them..cos they were twats!!
The point I am trying to make is that alcohol is a recreational drug, it certainly helped me through some very difficult times and i forged some very good and long lasting friendships in my local, but as tchock said people especially the younger ones drink to get drunk end of story. And it is far more insiduous and dangerous than a toke on a joint. Drink driving probably accounts for far more deaths than drug overdoses, and yet a drug dealer will get years inside and a drunk driver will most likely get off with a ban and a fine even if they kill someone...
dont get me wrong I dont condone drugs and dealing, if a youngster dies in a disco after taking an 'e'... everyone says 'its such a shame a young life destroyed in their prime' i say bollocks its darwins theory of survival of the fittest working its course, if you arent equipped to survive shoving things down your throat or up your nose or into your veins then you die, and hopefully before you get a chance to pass on your stupidity genes to any offspring. And anyone stupid enough to do those drugs knowing full well of the risks (and no-one can say that they dont know that certain drugs are dangerous, cos i dont buy that at all) deserves anything they get, be it a good hit or a slow death vomiting and bleeding and cardiac arresting all over the place
The problem is that the taxman gets a f*cking great wad of cash from the sales of alcohol, and youngsters probably drink far far more than any other age group so hey big wadge for HM revenue and customs, they arent about to put the kybosh on that by raising the legal age for drinking are they.. regardless of the weekend violence regardless of the car wrecks and broken bodies...its a bloody sham really
>>By BushisaManiac (Tuesday, 5 Sep 2006 01:13)
I agree that the laws are definitely not based on protecting the public in this case, not at all. You're right, it is a sham. And I agree, alcohol is much more dangerous than weed.
I certainly don't agree that anyone who takes drugs deserves whatever they get. I have friends who take drugs, if they overdosed and died I would not be thinking 'Serves them right'. In fact I'm surprised to hear that from you, it sounds more like something our friend Lv2Read would say.
Personally I think wishing death on ANYONE is wrong, but wishing it on someone purely on the basis that they take the risk of taking drugs. That's their choice, and it doesn't say anything whatsoever about their character.
>>By Flagg (Tuesday, 5 Sep 2006 13:55)
Don't get me wrong, I don't condone drugs either, and I know I said it's people that are the problem, but my point is although the world would be a better place if drugs simply didn't exist, they do, and people are going to use them whether it's legal or not. I just don't think it makes any sense, or shows any kind of compassion, to say someone deserves to die just because they did something they knew could kill them.
>>By Flagg (Tuesday, 5 Sep 2006 18:39)
Personally I think wishing death on ANYONE is wrong
Flagg, did i say i wished death on anyone? no i dont think i did.
Do they deserve to die if they take potentially life threatening drugs, they deserve to die as much as they deserve to live, if it kills them then i certainly won't mourn it, and if your friends die from drug taking what will you be thinking apart from the sense of loss of a friend (and i have lost friends before, although not through drugs so i do know of loss), will you blame them for risking their own lives and robbing you of their friendship? would you blame society, or their parents for not loving them enough or loving them too much? would you be sad for them for the long and rich life they would no longer have...if so why? dont do dangerous drugs and they wont kill you! quite simple really!
It's like the extreme skiers we see leaping off vertical rockfaces and then wiping out and snapping their spines...should we feel sorry for them? if so why, if they dont want a snapped spine dont leap off vertical rockfaces with two planks on your feet....simple really.
I fly planes for fun, if i crash due to a faulty aircraft its quite tough really it would be a shame, if i crash through a poor flying decision or poor pilot skills then I'm a twat and havent survived that particular environment, thats Darwins theory at work....but hey if i dont want to fall out of the sky i shouldn't go flying.
I ride a motorbike and i ride it fast ,if i get taken out by some numb nuts in a car who doesnt look where he is going thats a shame and the fucker should be banned from driving, if its cos i was doing 145mph and didnt give said numb nuts a chance to avoid me then im a twat aren't I
I dont wish a premature death on anyone, i have seen too much premature death, but if that death is the direct result of a dangerous/risky act then why whinge and whine about it, all i hope is that when i do go its fast and painless, sod the rest
>>By BushisaManiac (Tuesday, 5 Sep 2006 20:47)
Bushy:
if that death is the direct result of a dangerous/risky act then why whinge and whine about it, all i hope is that when i do go its fast and painless...
and that you go alone instead of taking innocent lives with you, caused by dangerous/risky things I'm sure that's what you meant, so my comment is just 'additional' ;-)
>>By Lynn (Tuesday, 5 Sep 2006 23:01)
I don't think they deserve death as much as life. I don't see how doing something that you know might kill you can make you deserve anything. But then, I seem to have a different definition for the word 'deserve' from the one everyone else has.
When you go flying you know you're risking your life. No, it doesn't make you a twat if you accidentally kill yourself. A twat is someone who upsets/hurts someone ELSE.
I understand what you've just said, for sure, but I am still amazed that you feel you can judge someone based on whether or not they're willing to risk their own life.
Was the Tibetan monk who set fire to himself a twat?
>>By Flagg (Tuesday, 5 Sep 2006 23:02)
Lynn, Obviusly i wouldn't want to take anyone with me if i pop my clogs through an accident of my causing,
and Flagg if i crash a plane through pilot error /poor judgement then i am truly a twat believe me
I can judge someone based on my own set of standards and morals, its how you judge people, its how everyone judges others, i'll bet that you too judge by your own standards in life,
and when people risk their lives its through poor judgement, lack of information or through willingness, if a drug user dies through their own actions then why should i feel any remorse or sorrow? honestly i am asking why i should even give them a nanosecond of thought?
and I fail to see the correlation between the self immolation of a monk protesting against whatever he feels is wrong with the world and somebody who needs to introduce drugs into their bodies to get a kick out of life.
that was a bit of a bone commment if you ask me mate!!
>>By BushisaManiac (Tuesday, 5 Sep 2006 23:14)
I do have a question about "a monk protesting against whatever" - if he sets fire to himself in public doesn't he make 'victims' too - in a way that it can't be a pretty sight for bystanders ?
Same may go for people who commit suicide - picking up little pieces of a (once) human being on a railtrack can cause some trauma for the ones who have to do the job.
On the other hand..one can presume that someone committing suicide isn't thinking clearly or this person may have looked for less definitive messures/other solutions.
So basically my question is... can you 'blame' people for their deaths if they have the intention of death upon themselves because they think their death is for a good cause and/or their last way out - if that means they involve (unintentionally) other people?
>>By Lynn (Wednesday, 6 Sep 2006 10:59)
well i think the whole point of self immolation as a form of protest is the visibility of the act, it is designed to raise wareness of whatever the cause.
suicide is a different matter, and as you say i dont think the person is thinnking right, but to do it in public is a bit out of order, a mate of mine had a guy jump off a motorway bridge onto his car years back, it totally wrecked the car and that was it no car, insurance didnt cover it and the car was bought on finance.
it turned out at the inquest into the suicide that the guy had tried it before, unsuccessfully obviously!! but where did that leave my mate?? a bit selfish of the fella if you ask me....i mean it would have been just as effective to go into the bathroom and slice through your femoral artery!!
>>By BushisaManiac (Wednesday, 6 Sep 2006 12:48)
ok
so the person who committed suicide.... his family's probably not recovered from that - he was maybe a father, husband, brother, son.
i really
think your mates car is a minor casualty in the incident.....................
however back to the real discussion
so
i CAN understand where you are coming from
but personally, i'm not too sure you'd stick to your principles if it were say your son or daughter or any relative who was not resolute enough not to take drugs, or who fell into depression so far his/her only solace was drugs........... or if it were someone you loved who had died in a car crash - even if it were there fault..................
nothing of course
can excuse driving on the wrong side of the road & crashing into another car, driving atrociously etc
but we ARE only human - and humans - believe it or not - make mistakes....... our judgement isn't always either right or wrong - we have to take things as they come..........
if you crash a plane due to a bad judgement that doesn't make you a twat as you say - it makes you inexperienced...... & probably shouldn't have been allowed to fly the plane in the first place........or it makes you someone who had to make a decision - and took the wrong one..................
if we remove all our actions & attitudes, personalities & beliefs
we are all human in the end
we are all suseptable to temptation, to drugs, to fun
the junkies desperate for their next fix or who die injecting themselves - they maybe junkies, but they're people first. surely it does not matter if we think they made a wrong choice in life - at the end of the day we all make bad mistakes - some worse than others. no matter how we judge their actions - at the end of the day, they'll still human & still need help - for whatever reason they ended up taking drugs............
A man arrested for murder may be allowed a lawyer - whether he is innocent or not.
>>By Tchock (Wednesday, 6 Sep 2006 20:54)
The guy that jumped onto my mates car was a son not married so no offspring, and although a car is just an object my mate spent 5 years paying back the finance on it and couldnt afford another car in that time...the point I was trying to make is that the guy was going to commit suicide and had tried it before....It happens people do that, he did...and my mate a complete stranger to this guy paid for his selfishness
now you can go on as much as you want about the trauma his family felt and the problems he had and how he was so depressed he had to end his life.... all good aand well but why should my mate have suffered for it? the guy should have strung himself up or slashed his femoral... end result the same....his family distraught, his life over but no-one else affected... and it wasnt just my mate who 'suffered' a coach ran over the body and I think two further cars were crashed trying to dodge the bits of meat that were left after the coach hit ......i dare say a few people were traumatised over that so why the hell should i feel an ounce of compassion for the suicide?? he isnt the first suicide and he wont be the last.
I dont have any kids, if i did perhaps my views would be totally different, if one of my brothers or sisters became an addict, we are the sort of family who would force cold turkey on them, if the brother/sister continually went back to drugs then they would be disowned by the family...full stop!!
I used to do puff quite often, but i never snorted anything, never popped any pills and never injected anything and beleive me it was offered......and people who do because of peer pressure or the desire for the next more intense high, despite knowing full well what the harder drugs can do do not have my sympathy empathy or thoughts..... its pure bullshit to say that its cos they are poor or the social environment has nothing to offer them, or they were just so depressed that they turned to drugs...... thats just a cop out by the do-gooders. there is always a way to crawl out of whatever gutter one finds oneself in it just needs balls and determination...if you havent got that then you cant survive your environment.. and thats the survival of the fittest!!
>>By BushisaManiac (Wednesday, 6 Sep 2006 21:26)
hmmmmm
at times i DO agree with your argument... but then i don't at the same time......................
i have never thought suicide as an act of selfishness - more desperation. There are some people who just cannot face another day of life - no matter if there IS a way out of their situation. I'm sure that if someone you loved decided to committ suicide - be it in their own home, or from the top of a bridge, you wouldn't say "Nah - leave them to it, it's natural selection." You'd try & help them.
But then I consider Ian Huntly - a few days ago he tried to commit suicide for the second time. After what he did, I'd be quite happy if the guards let him - but they didn't, for the sake that he must suffer his punishment alive - suicide was the 'easy way out'. So we feed & clothe him until he dies/get parole.
And then to drugs..........................
Well - again I kinda agree with you. There are junkies out there who are - well to summarise it in a word - scum. I wouldn't help them - but then again, their families might. They take drugs for the highs - & don't really learn to stop; they just keep on getting deeper & deeper & don't really care who it effects. They might die. it's the one's who were too - as you imply - weak that I sympathize with. Such a wasted life perhaps - the Neds/Chavs/People who inject heroin or pop pills are the kinda people who sit on the Dole all their life & never get off their backside.... (*coughs* Glaswegians).
Some people succumb to pier pressure - well......... none of us can truly say that that's never happened to us? It's human nature to "go with the flow". Some fight it more than others - be it unconciously, willingly or just who we are as a person. We're all young once - we all make mistakes like taking drugs. If a young teenager dies on the first heroin injection he ever took - would you not sympathize with the family or even the person? Now all this drugs education we receive at school (or not as in the case of my school) is very limited. I only ever got leaflets - this drug does this, sideeffects, death rates. It's just statistics - it's not real life. Now anyone with half a brain can read between the lines - but some don't. When offered anything - they might take it - to be daring, to be rebellious, to be part of the crowd. We may not make that decision - but does that make us any more deserving to live than they?
"Many that live deserve death, and many that die deserve life."
Who are we to judge who should have lived, and who should have died?
We're all suseptable to saying who should die - in the case of Saddam I say let him burn in the fiery pits of hell. There was a guy at Edinburgh Royal Infimary who was receiving dyalisis - & he abused, insulted, assaulted staff there - my opinion is "well don't treat him then". (incidentally they built him an £18 000 private ward).
If I happened upon Old Bin Laden in the streets I'd kill him - although I may leave it to those who have more reason to hate him than me (for instance the non-Taliban of Afghanistan, the victims of his ideas etc.....)
But "An eye for an eye makes the world blind."
Anyway
I'm going off topic here.....
You've obviously lived a great deal more than me - so maybe I'm talking utter rubbish - but I really cannot understand your lack of empathy for what really is human nature. Maybe I can understand it when it comes to the "scum" of this world..................
But I guess it
all revolves around the same idea - we make judgements on people and their actions before we're directly involved. Some stranger goes to jump off a building - you'd try & talk them out of it (although when a man tried to do that in Edinburgh a few months ago.... they were telling him TO jump....). Some stranger collapses at your feet from an overdose - you're not too sure if it IS an overdose, but you suspect. You leave him lying there in his own puke just to die?
No.
At least..... I wouldn't.................
>>By Tchock (Wednesday, 6 Sep 2006 22:22)
I'm sure that if someone you loved decided to committ suicide - be it in their own home, or from the top of a bridge, you wouldn't say "Nah - leave them to it, it's natural selection."
Of course i would try to talk someone out of suicide, anybody but especially a member of my family, and i feel a degree of sympathy for those that commit suicide. But that sympathy is lessened when other people are affected by what is an extremely selfish act, so full of self pity what about how their family members would feel especially those who leave children behind my own mother attempted suicide more than once and i felt hatred to her for doing that to us kids.
and if i saw someone collapse of a suspected overdose i would do my best to keep them alive stopping short of unprotected mouth to mouth resuscitation, if i thought the collapse were drug related then thats one thing i wouldnt do and if thats the one thing that would keep them alive then well thats tough for them.
and for people that die on the first injection of heroin of course i would be sympathetic to their families (and that would be an abstract sympathy as i dont know the families of any druggies), but for them no not a shred of sympathy, should i show any sympathy to these nutters you occasionally hear of in the US who manage to seperate their cerebral cortex from their skull when playing drunken games of Russian Roulette , injecting heroin is the same as holding the revolver to your head, but when it all goes pear shaped then sorry no i don't have the slightest feeling of remorse for a wasted life.
A few years ago youngsters died when taking 'e's fro the first time, now people should be aware that their is a risk of dying from that too so why feel sorry, for fuck sake go out and find something else that'll give you a buzz out of life.
I was driving a car one night in germany with my ex wife when we came across a car crash, a car beside the road on its roof and two guys unconscious in the front seats, i told my wife to run to the nearest house we could see, about a mile away, and i crawled in through the shattered rear window to turn off the racing engine (chance of fire you see) and see how injured the two guys were, i couldnt reach the ignition switch so i stayed in the car regardless of the risk of fire and ripped off my tee shirt to staunch the flow of blood coming from the drivers head, the pasenger didnt seem visibly injured. shortly the two guys started to come around and started to giggle uncontrolably, thats when i noticed that the stink in the car wasnt fuel but beer and thats when i noticed the empty cans littering the roof of the car where i lay trying to help them and thats when i got out and left them to it.
blood staunched no other injuries that i could see let the fuckers get their own way out of the mess they got into, luckily for them a couple more cars turned up to help anyway just as i was walking to my own car, but that was it for me got the missus in the motor (she had run her little legs off god bless her) and drove on. So basically I will go so far to help people whom are trying to self destruct but only so far then its move on.
>>By BushisaManiac (Wednesday, 6 Sep 2006 23:16)
>it turned out at the inquest into the suicide that the guy had tried it before, unsuccessfully obviously!! but where did that leave my mate?? a bit selfish of the fella if you ask me....i mean it would have been just as effective to go into the bathroom and slice through your femoral artery!!
I think if the guy had so many problems that he had to not only kill himself, but kill himself like that, then we should respect his reasons for doing it, even if we don't know them. And seriously man, getting all worried about a smashed car? The man is dead.
And I think we should respect the Tibetan monk's reasons for immolating himself too. His country was being taken over by a fascist dictatorship. There was more at stake than the feelings of the people watching. You're still surprising me with this argument.
I hate to say it but to me you seem arrogant. Someone kills themselves, or takes drugs, and you look down on them and have the presumptuousness to judge them. It's like whenever someone says 'Suicide is selfish and cowardly', ok yes it's upsetting for the person's family and friends, more than upsetting, it can screw them up for life, but all anyone cares about are the consequences of that action. No one is prepared to accept that things got so bad for that person that they couldn't take it anymore. No one respects them and their desire for everything to end. Which is surprising since everyone gets very depressed sometimes and many people have suicidal thoughts (I think), so we should be able to relate. But all we care about is our own feelings.
>>By Flagg (Wednesday, 6 Sep 2006 23:36)
>if a drug user dies through their own actions then why should i feel any remorse or sorrow? honestly i am asking why i should even give them a nanosecond of thought?
Because they're dead. And they DON'T deserve it just because they took a gamble and lost.
I'm not saying we should all constantly be mourning dead drug addicts, I'm just saying we shouldn't dismiss it, we shouldn't respect them any less.
You're against the war in Iraq. I understand it's not at all the same thing, but if you think it doesn't matter so much if a drug addict dies, why does it matter that soldiers and civilians die in Iraq? You think those people haven't made bad decisions at some time? You think they live up to your set of morals and standards?
>>By Flagg (Wednesday, 6 Sep 2006 23:39)
I didnt say that I didnt respect the tibetan monks act of self immolation, i dont think it did his cause any good a young lad in Prague did the same thing in 1968 and i have looked at the spot where he died many a time and thought of the bravery that it took to do that for his beliefs, but did it prevent the russians rolling in NO IT DIDN'T.
"And seriously man, getting all worried about a smashed car? The man is dead. "
so fucking what, yes he is dead, it happens, who gives a fuck why....... do you? if you do then you must surely be a tortured soul thinking of all the poor people who die in this world every single day....
and both you and tchock, heres a question for you both, do you own a car? do you have finance which you are struggling to pay as it is?..if the answer is no to both then you arent even qualified to commment on the hardship that that particular suicide caused my mate. and just think when you do finally get a car, if its robbed by some twat trying to sort his next fix , hey its just a car don't get mad....the poor fella needs relief for his tormented life...really you'ld be pissed off to fuck cos not only may your car be gone or damaged but hey your insurance premiums go up great fun, but its ok at least someone beneffited eh!!
too damn right i'm arrogant, I have been there, I have stood with a pistol muzzle in my mouth 'cause my world had come crashing down and by fuck am i glad i didnt squeeze that trigger. I have seen people die that definitely didnt deserve to, mothers and kids on a bus blown up by a drunken Croat playing with a grenade, an innocent family slaughtered cos a truck driver fell asleep at the wheel, with daddys head in his daughters lap on the back seat, not still attached to his body ya dig
and more shall i catalogue them all?
so dont get high and mighty cos a few twats decide that life isnt interesting enough without whacking some shite into their veins and then dont survive and i'm not mourning the poor wee souls.... as i said before, they deserve to die no more than they deserve to live, either way though its their choice. If thats arrogant then well gee bob thats life!!
>>By BushisaManiac (Thursday, 7 Sep 2006 00:02)
"but if you think it doesn't matter so much if a drug addict dies, why does it matter that soldiers and civilians die in Iraq?"
Lordy are you really serious with that question??
>>By BushisaManiac (Thursday, 7 Sep 2006 00:05)
Ok, I hadn't read up to the latest post, now I have. Tchock has said alot of what I meant to say, better than me.
But
>but they didn't, for the sake that he must suffer his punishment alive - suicide was the 'easy way out'. So we feed & clothe him until he dies/get parole.
Was that the reason? Or was it because this country's laws and its lack of capital punishment is based on the idea that it's wrong to kill someone, regardless of who they are? I honestly don't know, I expect it's different for different people. Obviously the law can't have an opinion.
BiaM.
>and although a car is just an object my mate spent 5 years paying back the finance on it and couldnt afford another car in that time
But he did it, right? He paid it back and ended up with a car again? Compared to a problem that could make someone kill themselves, that's a fucking inconvenience. Having to get the bus, or being dead, what would you choose?
Sorry about my language. I'm being passionate, could you tell?
Ok, maybe I don't feel SYMPATHY for someone who takes a stupid risk like Russian Roulette or heroin, but I at least feel a sense of loss, recognise it as a loss. From everything you've said, you just dismiss it. As though we won't miss a few junkies.
And about suicide. I don't want to sound arrogant, but I have been depressed, I mean really depressed, and I've felt apathy. When you feel like that, nothing in the world matters, nothing whatsoever. I've had times when I've been so depressed and so apathetic that I wouldn't have cared if everyone else in the world had died. That's not self-indulgence, it's depression, and it happens to ALOT of people. Just because you've never felt bad enough to attempt suicide, it does not mean you're any stronger or more capable than anyone else.
I'm not saying you should try and help every drug addict and every person on the verge of suicide, I'm saying you should try and respect their reasons for doing it, and not talk about them like their deaths don't mean anything.
>>By Flagg (Thursday, 7 Sep 2006 00:09)
"Just because you've never felt bad enough to attempt suicide, it does not mean you're any stronger or more capable than anyone else"
you were obviously writing your post at the same time i was..I had my reasons just as they did for wanting it all to end, I am just so glad i didnt put my family through that pain, let alone being glad for lbeing able to live the life I do now a pretty good life at that.
"But he did it, right? He paid it back and ended up with a car again? Compared to a problem that could make someone kill themselves, that's a fucking inconvenience. Having to get the bus, or being dead, what would you choose?"
Too right its an inconvienience we arent talking getting a 30 minute busride down town to go shopping, we are talking every time he wanted to go home he had to catch a plane or spend 18 hours on the bus or 10 hours on a train, he was a soldier at the time posted overseas and don't forget it wasnt HIS choice was it? if it was his choice then we wouldnt be discussing this
>>By BushisaManiac (Thursday, 7 Sep 2006 00:21)
>so fucking what, yes he is dead, it happens, who gives a fuck why....... do you?
Yes I fucking do.
Listen, if you lose your car, you get into financial difficulties, ok I've never been there so I'm not qualified to comment on it. But I'm only commenting on it in comparison to death, and I'm bloody sure I know more about financial trouble than death. Do you ever think about what death means? NO ONE FUCKING KNOWS. There is NO evidence to suggest that there's an afterlife and there is NO evidence to suggest everything just finishes with death. For someone to be ready to face that, they deserve a bit more respect from the rest of us I think.
And ok, if you have come close to suicide then I misjudged you and I'm sorry, but some people have been that far and then HAVE pulled the trigger. So what was different for them?? Are you gonna say it's that they're weak and selfish and you're not? Or are you gonna be honest and admit that you don't have a clue? None of us know what's going on inside someone else's head, so it's YOU who can get off your high horse, acting like you know everything and are qualified to judge everyone because you've seen some bad stuff.
>if you do then you must surely be a tortured soul thinking of all the poor people who die in this world every single day....
No I'm not, if I was then I would probably have killed myself too. But when I do think about it I recognise it as a loss of human life, as someone going into the one thing that no one on Earth can possibly know anything about, not as just another fucking loser taking the coward's way out.
>Lordy are you really serious with that question??
Believe it or not, yes I am. Why are you so surprised? Is it because you think a soldier's life is worth more than a junkie's? If it is then we might as well be speaking different languages.
>>By Flagg (Thursday, 7 Sep 2006 00:21)
>Too right its an inconvienience we arent talking getting a 30 minute busride down town to go shopping, we are talking every time he wanted to go home he had to catch a plane or spend 18 hours on the bus or 10 hours on a train, he was a soldier at the time posted overseas and don't forget it wasnt HIS choice was it? if it was his choice then we wouldnt be discussing this
But he SURVIVED it. It didn't kill him, like some people's problems kill them.
>>By Flagg (Thursday, 7 Sep 2006 00:22)
"Are you gonna say it's that they're weak and selfish and you're not?"
weak no, selfish yes they are especially if they leave family behind.
"Is it because you think a soldier's life is worth more than a junkie's? If it is then we might as well be speaking different languages."
well yes i definitely do, and yes we may as well be speaking different languages
give it another 20 years or so of experience mate and then you can get down the stables and sign out a saddle for a horse as high as mine
>>By BushisaManiac (Thursday, 7 Sep 2006 00:35)
>give it another 20 years or so of experience mate and then you can get down the stables and sign out a saddle for a horse as high as mine
You're no better than L2R, no better at all. In fact I'd rather be arguing with him, at least he was consisten.
So I'm naive for valuing all human life the same?
With all your years of experience you still can't see the difference between life and death. You can see the difference between having a car and not having a car, but not the difference between being alive and being fuck-knows where or nowhere at all.
Not accepting it when things get so bad that they kill themselves, that is total lack of empathy. If I thought that growing up meant having no empathy and being like you then I would kill myself right now, and I'd print this whole argument off first and leave it next to my corpse so my family would know why I did it, and then they'd have to deal with it.
But I don't think that. I'm never going to believe the same things as you, so don't you fucking dare talk down to me like that.
>>By Flagg (Thursday, 7 Sep 2006 00:44)
"You're no better than L2R, no better at all."
is that supposed to make me feel good...bad or what, sorry 'cos that means nothing to me
"So I'm naive for valuing all human life the same?"
Naive no, a little misguided in my opinion, and i give not a shit if you value my opinion or not, its just my opinion.
"With all your years of experience you still can't see the difference between life and death"
yes i can you live then you die, i dont beleive in any afterlife so as far as i'm concerned its just 'the big sleep' you just dont happen to wake up again thats all.
"If I thought that growing up meant having no empathy and being like you then I would kill myself right now, and I'd print this whole argument off first and leave it next to my corpse so my family would know why I did it, and then they'd have to deal with it"
now you are being extremely naive, if you think i give a shit about that either, but if you get so upset over things like this then maybe one day you will end up taking your own life... do yourself a favour first though get out and live life a bit eh!! see the world ,make love to some beautiful women or men if thats your thing, see the northern lights, watch a sunrise in the sahara, swim with humpback whales, cook and eat fresh salmon which you have caught in the great canadian lakes, help a woman give birth to a healthy child... if not stop fucking around and end it now,
and i will dare to talk to you how i fucking want
>>By BushisaManiac (Thursday, 7 Sep 2006 01:01)
>Naive no, a little misguided in my opinion, and i give not a shit if you value my opinion or not, its just my opinion.
I'm neither. Every human life is worth the same. Life is life.
>see the world ,make love to some beautiful women or men if thats your thing, see the northern lights, watch a sunrise in the sahara, swim with humpback whales, cook and eat fresh salmon which you have caught in the great canadian lakes, help a woman give birth to a healthy child
All the kind of thing that makes it even worse when you're depressed.
I don't much care what you think either. I am aware that both our lives will go on after this discussion. I am aware that neither of us has had much effect on the other, I do have experience in this type of discussion.
I think you believe yourself to be better than people who took their own lives, simply because you're alive and they're not. This is not the case.
That's all.
>>By Flagg (Thursday, 7 Sep 2006 01:07)
"All the kind of thing that makes it even worse when you're depressed."
If you are talking about yourself being so depressed what the fuck has an 18 year old got to be depressed about? unrequited love, school exams, you said yourself you havent experienced money problems yet so what else?
Jesus H christ on a stick, get a grip get over it and move on, there are more women in the world than the one you currently love,
if you havent got the right exams to get into the uni that you want, fucking carry on studying theres such a thing called further education, if you cant get the job you want get the next best thing and work like a bastard to advance onto the one you do want.
Being bullied, have some balls and stand up to the fuckers, you may get a kicking but its only pain, and pain lessens over time a damn site faster than self loathing for not doing anything about it.
do i think I'm better than those that commmit suicide because of these resons, yes i fucking do cos all of the above have happened to me (except the Uni thing) and i managed to get a grip and get over it, it werent easy but the end result is a life far far better.
get a grip or roll over and let it crush you, which do you think deserves more respect?
obviously there is such a thing as clinical depression, schizophrenia and all sorts of phobias and isms and if thats the case then get medical help, but thats an entirely different thing than topping yourself cos the world isnt fair, cos your girl left you for your best mate...thats just self pity and the cure for that lies within....
of course you may not be talking about yourself but it still applies
>>By BushisaManiac (Thursday, 7 Sep 2006 01:28)
A lot of young people are depressed these days, they don't have have had bad experience..we've created a world that can be seen black enough to get a dark vision about the (their) future.
I'd say 'we' are dumping many problems on our kids and they will have to find a way to deal with it.
Also a lot more pressure on kids in these days, they all have to be beautiful and succesful and there's a helluva lot competition.
Soldiers/ex-soldiers need to shift their empathy, you can't step into a warzone with a gun in your hand and weep for every victim. It needs your brain to get more numb in a way, to survive.
Mothers are much more sensitive when it comes to children, because they know what it's like to have a child.
Even cats & dogs will have feeling for their bosses but will likely have not much feelings for other people.
What I mean is that we're all coloured by our experiences, and how it effects us is different for each and everyone of us so I don't think you can judge anyone for doing what they do, or what they feel or think. That does NOT mean some actions can't be wrong (or right).
For example, I find it impossible to judge someone who commits suicide because they must be seriously messed up taking their own life, and I have no clue what got someone to do it. But I can find the method wrong especially it has effect on other people. It's a matter of making a distinction between the persons motives, the persons actions and the consequences.
We can show each other our point of views but you can never force anyone to accept yours.
But the good thing about discussing these things is that you can always learn from others, even if you don't agree.. it may help you to get more insight into the world around us because we're all so different and we do have to find a way to live together.
>>By Lynn (Thursday, 7 Sep 2006 10:16)
Thank you Lynn, you've said what I've been trying to say all along, or some of it at least.
BiaM you're the most presumptuous person I've ever met. You're one of those people who can't even begin to accept someone else's point of view. You're so confident that you're right and everyone else is wrong that you assume you know what I'm thinking, then you form an argument based on that assumption.
No I've never been in love, I've never had my heart broken by a girl. Ok, I've had some problems with exams, I'm dealing with them though, I'm not having suicidal thoughts. I don't know if I'm clinically depressed. One thing I do know is that I've BEEN depressed like I said, and I don't understand why you can't bring yourself to just believe me. I don't understand why you have to undermine literally every word I say. Why can't you accept that things are different for me? I'm not asking you to change your views, just to concede that mine aren't worthless.
Lynn, based on what he's said so far, I don't think BiaM is learning anything from all this.
>>By Flagg (Thursday, 7 Sep 2006 13:13)
Oh I don't know Flagg - sometimes our mouth is more impulsive than our head ;-)
BiaM can speak perfectly for himself but what I meant to say is that we all respond based on our experiences, cultural values, our views shaped by our past, character etc. and BiaM does that just as much as you do and I can't judge neither you nor him or anyone else for their views and opinions. I can give my own opinion though. And sometimes I learn, and sometimes you learn - but on other times/subjects maybe we can't be convinced, can't be convincing or just don't want to be......
This can be frustrating, be enlighting, even funny or making you mad as hell.. but that makes it interesting - don't you think?
>>By Lynn (Thursday, 7 Sep 2006 14:12)
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