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I'm not really *all* that interested in theology but maybe I'll look out for those books. Could be interesting, certainly couldn't do any harm, cheers.
>>By Flagg (Wednesday, 2 Aug 2006 17:08)
No problem Flagg. I was thinking about those books because of the last post you made and how I found them interesting and helpful at a certain point in my journey. I think maybe I found those ideas helpful because I was struggling to find a way to maintain a "spiritual" side to my life without being encumbered with the supernatural/theist beliefs most orthodox faiths have as part of their package. On reflection maybe you're in a different position, but as you say I doubt reading either would do anyone much harm. :)
>>By planet ear (Wednesday, 2 Aug 2006 17:49)
I think Zen looks like a good way to be spiritual but not held down by actual beliefs. Not Buddhism, just Zen. I've tried it a few times, I never could get into a routine of meditating every day though.
>>By Flagg (Wednesday, 2 Aug 2006 19:49)
I'm BACK.
Well now - after my three week excursion I DID expect a raging debate.... but I suppose certain people are glued to the CNN & Fox News screen right now with what looks like the etchings of the start of world war three going on.... dear me CNN news is awful. While stuck stranded in forgein lands - it was the ONLY channel which gave english-speaking "news". It was amazing really - they sped passed the Israeli assaults on Lebanon so quickly you hardly had time to breathe before they were saying how disgusting Hizbollah were for firing the close range missiles.
A line from Roger Waters now....
"And the Germans kill the Jews and the Jews kill the Arabs and the Arabs kill the hostages and then it's the news."
>>By Tchock (Wednesday, 2 Aug 2006 21:48)
I fear religion as a gun pointed at my head. The pistol may be empty, the bullets may be blank - but it is still aimed at my head, and only the trigger has the control.
>>By Tchock (Thursday, 3 Aug 2006 17:26)
Do you regard your fear of religion as a rational fear, of an irrational fear Tchock?
>>By planet ear (Thursday, 3 Aug 2006 19:47)
*or
>>By planet ear (Thursday, 3 Aug 2006 19:48)
Rational or irrational.
Rational.
Religion has started wars, stifles individualism & critisizm, spiritualism and is above all the most immoral thing ever created.
We study the gods of Greek society & Norwegian & Aztec & Egyptian & Roman as mythology. Yet we allow millions to be absorbed into the pseudo-culture of religion. I'm going to come back to Roger Water's lyric here: What God Wants God Gets God Help Us All.
It is far too hard to explain in words what religion is & what it is doing to the human race. I remember studying the ideas behind the Standing Stones in Orkney (wee scottish island) & how that it was probably about worshipping the sun. That's considered primeval nowadays - yet it is far more sensible that what the various religious beliefs are. The sun DOES actually exist & can be proven to exist. Where as millions believe in this "mystical being" who created everything & watches over you..... YAWN.
The quicker people stand up to this nonse the better - it is scary that in this day & age people can actually believe this. Remember the mudslides in........Pakistan (yes?)
I think it was...
But there was a man interviewed who's home had been destroyed & I think he had lost a family member. He was moving back to the same area he had lived in - the exact same farm/house. And the interviewer asked him 'What if mudslides happen again?"
The man said "Then that is Allah's will."
So he is risking his family's life on the belief that some being, who has not proven himself to exist & who by all scientific means cannot be proven, has decided to set him a challenge or to take him to 'the great beyond' a bit quicker. It is mad.
If a psychiatric patient declared that he was hearing voices in his head from god - he would be locked up & the key thrown away. Yet it is alright for these Jehova's Witness people to prance about door to door saying 'convert to us'.
Jesus on the Cheese on Toast
The Virgin Mary on a piece of bird shit.
Does this not scare anyone else that people not only believe that they see these people in their breakfast or on their wheelbarrow but that millions of other people actually BELIEVE them? Has the virgin mary-bird shirt home not opened up into a museum??? How much did that piece of toast fetch on ebay again???
How many biology teachers have recieved death threats in America for teaching about the 'theory' of evolution. Stuff that P.C bollocks - theory my ass.
Religion - all religion - is like the disease of the human mind. YES there are concepts which I agree with - such as 'thou shalt not kill' - they're bound to get something right sooner or later.
Religion sends chills down my spine similar to when I think of perfection.
Anyone else share my view??
Sorry for the language in various parts... but I feel really strongly on this subject & often cannot control my outbursts........
>>By Tchock (Thursday, 3 Aug 2006 23:27)
*nonsense
>>By Tchock (Thursday, 3 Aug 2006 23:50)
Religions start wars? I can't say I agree, but I'll tell you my reasons.
Nation states start wars, or groupings within nation states in the case of civil wars. Usually in the recent past the reasons have been economic (territory(and thus usually revenue) ,control of mineral rights, trade routes, fertile land, water supplies, fishing rights etc) or fear of aggression should another state be building a force that might threaten a currently more dominant one militarily (a state that can afford a more dominant military force will if it feels threatened by the military growth have broadly only a few options ... improve it's own forces to prevent aggression, enter into allegiances with others (or indeed the potential aggressor) to present a united force, or strike to reduce the effectiveness of the perceived threat while if it can do so from it's position of current
superiority with acceptable costs)
It IS often the case obviously that the states can have differing dominant religions but I can see precious little evidence of that ever being the motivation for starting the war. Sure it might form part of the propaganda that usually happens prior to hostilities, anything that can be seized upon by those in influencial positions to mark the enemy out as "different" "threatening" "immoral" etc will be.
My observation on civil wars is that they usually result when rather different groupings of people by any racial, tribal, religious yardsticks are thrust together as one nation for conveniences sake by a empire which maintains stability whilst present but in the inevitable choas that ensues after the retreat of the imperial influence they do not naturally form one nation and the old divisions reassert themselves.
Regarding stifling of individualism, criticism and spirituality. Stifling of these parts of individual expression seems to me to common to ANY society/community whether religious or not. Indeed the impression I have formed is that states where the dominant ideology is/was marxist are if anything more restrictive of individual freedom and expression.
Admittedly I am inclined to see Marxism as to all intents and purposes an Atheist religion but since this doesn't seem to be a commonly held view since most are trapped into seeing religion as an expression of theistic beliefs I am assuming that most readers wouldn't be inclined to share this view.
Religion the most immoral thing ever created? Hmmm ....surely to describe something as immoral one must have a set of morals by which one can judge (Incidently a clear part of many faiths is the instruction that we should not be judgemental)? Where then do yours originate Tchock?
The rest of your post seems to be a list of examples of the failings of religious individuals, clearly it would be possible to come up with a similar list of failings of non-believers/practicers and I'm not sure it would move the discussion on in any useful way.
BTW I'm an atheist with a small "a" but I am interested in religious thought and practice in much the same way as I am about political or philosophical strands of thought or the Arts as reflections of human thought and belief.
Anyone else got a view?
>>By planet ear (Friday, 4 Aug 2006 02:08)
Common expression.. EVERY fight/war/dispute evolves around one of the "3 C's"
Church
Capital
C*nt
;-) pardon the (last) expression
>>By Lynn (Friday, 4 Aug 2006 15:41)
LOL Are you sure that's the right order Lynn?
>>By planet ear (Friday, 4 Aug 2006 17:52)
First, I agree with Tchock about religion. I also agree with Lynn--I've been known to start local wars for that third C.
As for Planet Ear...You mention that observation can change the outcome of an experiment, and you're right--at least on the quantum level. However, I dare say that you watching me throw a ball may make me nervous and throw it less far, or embolden me to throw it farther than usual, but it's still gonna hit the ground either way. You can observe and test 2 being added to 2 over and over, and the result will still be four.
I will NOT share the evidence against astrology here (for God's sake, it's based on obeservations that have been proven to be incorrect) because I consider everyone here reasonably intelligent.
That you tried to prove something with big words and some half-remembered and completely-misunderstood chapter from your high-school physics book just tells me you SHOULD believe in astrology--the real world doesn't appeal to you.
And I know that's true, because I'm a gemini and we're smart like that.
>>By Just Jon (Saturday, 5 Aug 2006 01:43)
JJ both that ball you're gonna throw and I weigh something I can fuck with its available quantum states by drinking a glass of water. You underestimate the gravity of your situation! ;) Ommmmm!
>>By planet ear (Saturday, 5 Aug 2006 03:53)
*ok, states practically indistinguishable from continuum, and difference their to trajectories imperceptable, but I also enjoy messing with all certainties ;)
>>By planet ear (Saturday, 5 Aug 2006 05:20)
mmm talking of religion did you hear about the agnostic dyslexic insomniac?
lay awake all night wondering if there really was a Dog
lame but it still makes me giggle :-)
Lynn the only war I know of that started of C*nt was perhaps the old helen of troy saga...god bless brad pitt for that piece of shite!!
>>By BushisaManiac (Saturday, 5 Aug 2006 10:18)
that 'of' should be 'over' bugger my chubby fingers on such a small keyboard!!
>>By BushisaManiac (Saturday, 5 Aug 2006 10:25)
Biam, weren't the sons of Adam n Eve "Canine Able"? ;)
>>By planet ear (Saturday, 5 Aug 2006 14:59)
Well it looks like this conversation has gone to the dogs..................
My, I should be a comedian(ne?)
Hmmm.... well religion & wars/turmoil.
Well you've got Ireland for a start & parts of Scotland. Protestant & Catholic - all fighting over .... what exactly? They believe in the same god, don't they?
Dearie me...........
And then there is (this is going back a bit mind you) The Crusades. I think the rippling effect from that is still reverbrating...
Iraq
Sri Lanka - I know of a couple who fled their country because two of their friends were murdered for being in a mixed religious marriage.........
Israel & Palestine (although initially it was because Britain said to the Jews here you go have this country.......... never mind about those palestine people.)
Then of course for centuries Christianity has been instilling itself upon the 'non believers'.
Did you know that the ONLY subject which HAS to be taught in any School in Scotland (maybe Britain) is Religious Education. No Maths, no English - nothing else. There is also a quota of religious (christian) events to be set by each school in Scotland/Britain each term. In my former school we had to sing hymns & pray. Of course not everyone did this, but the fact remains that if we did not & were caught - we could be put on detention etc. Fortunately not many teachers cared enough. However scarily enough there are two teachers in my former school who believe that biology should be dropped from the school curriculum - they continue to harrass the headteacher over this........
Now, other religious 'stuff'.
I watched a program last week - Panarama (sp?) on BBC. It was about how a certain charity was aiding Hamas. You saw pictures of how this 'nursery/school' made the children sing certain songs along the lines of 'we are happy to give up our lives through strapping a bomb to ourselves & die for you Allah.' I can't describe how horrific it was to see children of five or six singing this. That was a result of extreme religion perhaps, but you cannot argue that it is not religion. I know that not ALL Muslims are like this - but this is a specific set which turns these childrens' minds. Perhaps we only recognise it as being evil is because it entails bloodshed - but surely all children of religious descent suffer to this dogmatic indoctrination - if very much less severe. Either way it is still wrong.
Then there are 'Faith Schools' - which are just plain wrong - as are private schools.
Perhaps it is just me - but is it right to tell a child from aged zero that there is a wonderful God out there who will look after you blah blah blah? It's just a cop out to me - YOU make a mistake then it is YOUR fault - not some devine intervention to challenge you. You cannot pray a few times & attend the mosque/church/synagogue every day to repay your 'sins' & be forgiven by 'God/Allah'. If you murder someone & pray for the rest of your life does that make it alright? Remember that Christian activist who murdered a Doctor who performed abortions in America? He did not feel sorry nor seek redemption - he thought he was a martyr (as he later received the death penalty).
Then of course there is the belief in Christianity that if you are not baptized/christined then you are going to burn in hell.
Imagine telling this to a child:
If some guy in a white cloth didn't pour water over your head when you were young - you're going to burn in hell. This horrible place full of pain & misery. However, during life if you make a mistake - God's just testing you, it's not your fault. You can justify your actions with your beliefs.
Religion & Women:
It's a hot debate in the Papacy whether or not Women should be equal amongst their male colleagues in the Church. Now surely if Christianity was not a means of controlling the people, this would have been accepted long before now - I mean GOD is really a nice guy isn't he?
Then there are the Muslim women - who dress up to their eyes in black cloth in the scorching heat. Hmmm... can anyone actually tell me why they wear this? I see no practical means - I mean if you are in the heart of the middle east in the height of summer the last thing you need is to be completely covered up in the one thing that's going to attract the heat of the sun. So it must be some sorta *divine* attire. I saw two most bizarre sights whilst on holiday a few weeks ago. One was an Orthodox Muslim women & her young daughter of about four walking along. Only the mother's eyes could be seen. And the daughter? She was carrying on her back a pink Barbie bag - yeah - the busty barbie who is just so typically Western. Another was a young Muslim women dressed up to her eyes in black staring at this shop window full of female fashion (austrian style).
What possible purpose is there for wearing impractical clothing in public? Is it so the women are kept pure from other men or perhaps it's just because the men like to keep dominance over their females............. (notice how the MEN are allowed to wear those trendy GAP tshirts & those child-made Nike trainers.)
And then there is the big black cuboid in Mecca. How many thousands pilgramage there each year?? How many are crushed to death by over-zealous believers who strive to get that little bit nearer to this black box in the centre of a city rather than take notice of whose face they seem to be standing on. It might be just me, but personally I see this as mentally unstable.........If you told the police you heard voices in your head to touch this box any way you could & you happened to crush this person to death - they would lock you up - as soon as you say it is your religious belief, they say it was an accident.
(This argument may be a trifle two sided with me only discussing two religions............. but the points are significant for all. )
If there REALLY was a God somewhere out there - why is he hiding himself/herself?
Why doesn't he/she come out & scream 'I'M HERE - OH YEAH THOSE OTHER RELIGIONS ARE WRONG?'
Why has that not happened?
Ra, Osiris, Thor, Hermes, Poseidon have all been condemened as 'what the primatives believed'. Can anyone tell me what makes God, Allah, Vischnu (sp?), Ganeshia (sp?) etc any different?
Religions may have dropped the sacrificing as in the old times in the Aztecs & Mayans & other empires - but the idea is still there. They sacrifice their children's minds in order to fulfill their own beliefs.
I think the Monty Python Life of Brian scene best describes religion....
Brian's just fallen into a hole with the man who has not spoken for 18 years. His devotees come racing up the hill.
John Cleese shouts "He is the Messiah - & I should know, I've followed a few..."
Then the man who had not spoken for 18 years comes up & says : "You told these people to eat my juniper berries. You break my bloody foot. You break my vow of silence, and then you try and clean up on my juniper bushes!"
John Cleese: "This is the Messiah, the Chosen One!"
18 Year Man: "No, he's not."
John Cleese: "An unbeliever! Persecute! Kill the heretic!!"
& They carry him off to his death.....................
>>By Tchock (Monday, 7 Aug 2006 17:51)
A question to our old and absent friend, lv2read.
If you still read this board, yet remain silent, please at least absord the question and contemplate what it actually means.
I just heard on the news about how a group of American soldiers raped a 14 year old Iraqi girl. One soldier shot dead her parents and five year old sister, and then proceeded in raping the 14 year old. She too was shot dead.
So then, lv2read & all other pro-War supporters - did they die for the greater good? Was their death worth it for the peace and civility of Iraq?
>>By Tchock (Monday, 7 Aug 2006 19:27)
Just as the majority or the muslims are good people, and there's a little group of extremists who think it should be their way or no way - there are rotten apples in the (western) armies too. As jails are full of civilian rotten apples of all religions.
Mind you - I would like to know if the soldiers mentioned would have showed this kind of behaviour in the civil world iow how much of their behaviour is due to the conditions these soldiers have worked/lived in and perhaps lack of (psychological) guidance.
I'm not saying their behaviour is excusable, just wondering if part of it is because of the heavy stuff they have to live through being in a warzone, being there for so long.
From all 1000s of soldiers in those warzones.. this particular event is about 5 of them lets not forget that. But still it's 5 too many and could it have been avoided?
>>By Lynn (Monday, 7 Aug 2006 21:05)
You might say it's to do with the psychological effects of a warzone & the strain of 'trying to survive' - after all how many women were raped by American soldiers in Vietnam & Korea??
But then again it could just come back to good old human nature. There are hundreds of 'civilian' rapists out there & all they have to deal with is getting a job & paying the bills - like everyone else.
Perhaps I should have mentioned that the soldier who killed all four of the family is now being trialled by a civilian court as he has been diagnosed with some psychological disorder or something. After they had killed her they burned her with kerosene & the man in question (allegedly I might add although I think we can safely conclude he is as guilty as hell) proceeded in cooking his lunch on the flames (chicken wings).
These men suddenly DECIDED to - they had no breakdown. There were no exceptional circumstances which caused them to do this - the rest of the U.S & British & other coalition armies seemed to cope ok don't they? (Well not all of them...)
The only thing that seperates these soldiers from the sick scum that lurks in jails & out on the street preying on women & men is the fact he's got a uniform.
And as for the religious extremists - well it is not exclusive to Muslims - it's all religions, really. For centuries they have been imposing themselves on other cultures & no doubt will continue to do so - whether it be the Jedi Knights of this world or those who do it with more subtlty than the ones we see on Al Jazeera TV every now & then. I'm all for free-thinking & personal beliefs & principles, but when you have children of all faiths growing up thinking if they do something wrong (such as showing SKIN in public if you are female) they will spend the afterlife in 'hell' or thinking that this 'GOD' person will help them out or show them the way, or saying that you will burn in the fiery pits of hell because you had sex before you were married, then that is wrong, or when you tell them their respective god will be most pleased if you could so helpfully blow yourself up & kill a few other people at the same time.............then that is wrong.
I think it's high time we accepted that the only thing above the clouds was a vaccum with stars, planets, galaxies & possibly other universes interspersed along the way.
>>By Tchock (Monday, 7 Aug 2006 23:22)
Ooh Tchock bit of a downer on religion there matey
don't forget that out of the millions of people on the planet who believe in whatever God they do, a fair few of them actually derive succour, wellbeing and peace from their religious beliefs, and the zealots are truly in the minority.
However that the zealots are more newsworthy, know what I mean.
As for the rape and murder of the Iraqi girl and her family, well its not the first war this has happend in unfortunately and it wont be the last, there are certain men of all nations who will do this, soldiers and civilians alike, a war just gives them a far greater chance to get away with it, its just one unfortunate part of war.
>>By BushisaManiac (Monday, 7 Aug 2006 23:24)
*is
>>By Tchock (Monday, 7 Aug 2006 23:25)
Ahhhhh
yes I there are a lot of religious people with a good heart - but there are also a lot of aethiest/non-believers/infidels who have a good heart as well. It is the fact that we still have this notion of 'god' - it seems ridiculously primitive to me, and at times most uncomfortable to hear the extent at which they believe in their respective god............ whether it be the fact that they see Jesus on their Cheese on Toast or whether they feel like blowing up a café to get on his good side.
To me both are on the the brink (if not over) insanity - they are just at different ends of the precipice.......
>>By Tchock (Monday, 7 Aug 2006 23:30)
i agree with you on that one, I watched 'dispatches' on channel 4 tonight about muslims in Britain, one of the main things muslims of all ages dislike with a passion is the freedom of speech the non muslims 'abuse' when it comes to ridiculing faith, that to me is just bizarre in this day and age... but its there and we have to live with it
>>By BushisaManiac (Monday, 7 Aug 2006 23:37)
Tchock, you dissappoint me.
Irish "troubles" ... are clearly Replublicans vs Unionists (and I do know a Republican who is Protestant btw) it's lazy and disingenuous to describe it as a religious struggle they're fighting not over transubstanstiation but a united or divided Ireland (due to British Rule). The Irish Republican Army is not the Catholic church who have fairly uniformly encouraged a peaceful resolution to the situation.
I think you'll find the Iraq/Kuwait situation has bugger all to do with the Crusades and much more to do with UK/US owned Gulf Oil Company finding it easier to exploit the Kuwait to the neglect of the rest of Iraq by finding a local bigwig and offering him military protection in the early part of the 20th Century in return for his assistance in exploitation of oil.
In fact the majority of your post seems to be neglecting that a persons religion is for the most part intwined with their political national and social grouping as part of their personal identity. The Sri Lankan couple murdered for being "mixed religion" were likely also mixed community if not mixed race aswell. I not suggesting that makes it aceptable simply that your interpretation seems biased due to your "Evangelical Atheism".
To solve problems in the world I'd suggest we need to look for common ground between people of any or no faith. Taking potshots at the religious just because they have in some way (probably with many reservations and doubts) accepted a faith system that functions within their own society does not seem to me to be a very healthy activity. Indeed in some ways it seems as prejudiced and dogmatic as some of those you mock for their theisism.
I am still curious to find out what informs your own moral position. Will I get an answer this time?
>>By planet ear (Monday, 7 Aug 2006 23:38)
The "Irish Troubles" are not merely about unionist & republicans however are they? I never said it was entirely about religion.
Iraq - well, did I say the INVASION of Iraq (part two)? No. I meant internal troubles.... I assumed the meaning would have come through clearer................
<as prejudiced & dogmatic as some of those you mock for their theisism>
Hmmm. No. Not at all. "Either you believe in magic.... .I mean religion.... or you DON'T." (sorry.... can't take credit for that one.........stole it from a Helmet..... ;) )
I'm against the concept of religion - not the people who believe in it...... most of them probably are as good and as bad as the rest of us - they are all human after all. Humans exploit just about anything which they can - it's in our nature - some times we realise what we or others have done and attempt to repair the damage done.
& my moral position originates from the same place yours does & the same place everyone else's......... the way we were brought up. It all differs to a lesser or greater extent and neither is more important than the other........ but it's all brought about by the world we grew up in surely.......
>>By Tchock (Tuesday, 8 Aug 2006 00:46)
Well Tchock reading through our exchange I still remain to be convinced that your "fear of religion" is terribly rational rather than a piece of rather empty rhetoric. I mean you've presented the thesis that religions "start wars", cited the Irish situation as your primary example, conceded (I think) that the situation isn't "entirely about religion", but I do feel that those difficulties really evolved from succesive changes of the control/ownership of Ireland. I'm tempted to say (for the amusement of those who have perhaps looked a little deeper at Irish history) that maybe your comments are a little "beyond The Pale"? ;)
I quite clearly, in context, said your habit of taking "potshots" at the religious was the activity that " seemed in some ways as prejudiced and dogmatic as some of those you mock....". I'm not wild about defending positions I didn't take so I hope you'll forgive me for not doing so.
"Against the concept of religion - not the people that believe it" ...erm perhaps you could expand on that if you do wish to explain your position?
I'm afraid your moral criteria for describing religion as "above all the most immoral thing ever created" remain something of a mystery to me. You are, I suppose, entitled to hold that view without justification to readers of this board, but I cannot help it if I or other readers were to form the impression that you may have a fondness for grandiose or ill-considered rhetoric should you choose not to do so.
>>By planet ear (Tuesday, 8 Aug 2006 15:06)
OK Tchock, Since you're a Python fan just remember "No one expects the Planets Inquistion!" :)
>>By planet ear (Tuesday, 8 Aug 2006 18:50)
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