I believe Rick Warren is a false teacher presenting a false gospel that closely resembles the truth and if possible will even deceive the elect.
>>By Pam Fisher (Sunday, 6 Apr 2003 05:28)
I need to know more about that Mr. Warren is presenting a false gospel. Please contact me. Jim Nelson
>>By firstname.lastname@example.org (Monday, 7 Apr 2003 17:03)
I need negative comments on Mr. Warren
>>By Jim Nelson (Monday, 7 Apr 2003 17:05)
You really don't need negative comments regarding Rick Warren. We/You need to discern what is in his message(s) and how that relates to the Word of God. I would direct you to read the following 2 articles that do a very good analysis of Rick Warren's true message compared to God's message.
Look for the "Book of Numbers" article by Chris Lehman. You can find one definitive article online at http://www.slate.msn.com/id/2080232/
A second, very in depth look at Rick Warren and his ministry was done by Dennis Costella and published in "Foundation" magazine, March-April 1998. http://www.fundamentalbiblechurch.org/Foundation/fbcsdlbk.htm
I would also suggest you spend a bit of time on Rick Warren's web sites at http://www.purposedrivenlife.com and http://www.pastors.com
As you read the articles, and spend time on the web sites, I would suggest you ask yourself if God is really being edified by Rick Warren. I believe his ministry is the defined meaning of a "seeker sensitive" ministry. A ministry that makes "Saddleback Sam" (what he calls members/attenders) feel good and not have any guilt or remorse. That is not what God teaches us.
And look at the web sites. The first thought that comes to my mind was Jesus entering the synagog of the Sabbath and seeing "money changers" and throwing them out. On Rick Warren's web site, you cannot even get a sermon or outline unless you pay for it (money changer). This is a big business. Not what God wants us to be, according to His word, much of which Rick Warren ignores.
>>By Charles Nicks (Sunday, 27 Apr 2003 20:50)
I get so tired of those in the Christian world that destroy their own.. Do not any of you even consider the fact that although you may very much disagree with the way Rick Warren presents Christ's message, thousands of people will join us in heaven someday because of the message that God has placed in him to deliver on His behalf. I think that everyone including myself at times need to remember that God is in control and may be using purposes that are outside the typical believers comfort. Also, we are living in a society now that many people have never even heard the name of God except in a profain way, we are to reach out to them, love them, and most of all teach them how to live a righteous life that Christ calls us to live. Also, the money that goes into Rick Warrens ministry is almost always earmarked for other ministry (like shelters, food the children, etc.) Do not be so arrogant that you yourself will face God in judgement of the people you possibly turned away from God and a ministry He is blessing by bad mouthing and speaking slander against a fellow believer. There is much you assume and do not know and as Christians we are held to a higher standard and Rick Warren is held even higher than most, satan is the only one winning with the anti Rick Warren banter.
>>By Sally Dietz (Saturday, 21 Jun 2003 21:23)
I agree that Rick Warren is a false teacher. He twists the scriptures in a frightening fashion. I have recently challenged unsuccessfully the use of Purpose Driven Life at the Southern Baptist church which I attend. I have some additional links to articles which examine Rick Warren's teachings, plus a brief critique of select chapters of Purpose Driven Life and a critique written by a pastor friend which is quite penetrating. I will be pleased to provide any of these links or materials. My email address is email@example.com.
I strongly disagree with Ms. Dietz above. We need to publicly expose false teaching and warn the sheep. A failure to critically examine popular teaching is (with apologies to Francis Schaeffer) a failure of Christian love.
FInally, I am a member of a Yahoo discussion group where the posts come by email. Is this group similar, or must I access it through this web page? I am totally unfamilar with how this list works but would like to join in.
>>By Jim Gieseke (Monday, 23 Jun 2003 22:09)
Whos right? You 5 people, or the thousands who have dedicated their lives to The True Living God, Jesus Christ, thorugh a message taught by HIS SERVANT Rick Warren. The only part you know of Saddleback church is the "seeker friendly" part. Which, by the way, I think is cool for those who are intimidated by God. Some people were raised by RELIGOUS finatics, probably not unlike yourselves, and fear a God who will condemn them. True, God will condemn the nations and those who choose not to accept his son into their hearts. Rick shows these people not the vengful God who will cast people to hell. Thats only ONE part of God. And, its the last part Of God. Its a part we do not know, so why would he, or anyone with sense want to teach on it. Pastor Rick, introduces Jesus Christ, and the peace of the Gospel to people. He does it skillfully, as a man who HAS BEEN annointed by God. Greg Laurie is teaching at saddleback this weekend. Greg Lauries Calvary Doctrine is as solid as the Jesus Christ that Rick Warren gracefully offers to people around the world. I strongly urge you to remove the plank from your eye. Judge not, lest ye be judged. Just because you dont AGREE with the way someone teaches, it doesnt mean that God's hand isnt there. God has, and will continue to bless Rick Warren, ans saddleback church, and all of the ministries therein. I pray that God would truly open the eyes of your hearts, and show you the way. Not to find the dirt on people, but to see the good in people. Go the way Jesus Taught. Go the way God wills. God has numerous thoughts of his children. Of you. He enjoys and embraces the thoughts your entertain of Him. He loves his son Rick Warren, and he loves his sons and daughters, such as yourselves. I bet he dislikes when his children argue about the way they present their Father. Stop hating on the family of Christians. Embrace eachother, as Christ would embrace you. Love one another, as Christ has loved us...Find your purpose..I can guarentee you it's not to bash people. God Bless, and Good Day
>>By firstname.lastname@example.org (Saturday, 26 Jul 2003 17:26)
Our church is getting ready to go through Rick Warrens "40 Days of purpose campaign". I was asked to be involved in one of the campaign's leadership roles. When I went through the matirial, I found an important piece of Christian reading material left out. The Bible. Oh yes, we will be doing daily readings from our copy of the purpose driven life by Rick Warren.
>>By Joe Miller (Sunday, 27 Jul 2003 04:38)
Thats funny.My copy of purpose driven life has over 2000 scripture references in it, translated into plenty of versions. HOW WEIRD!!!
>>By email@example.com (Sunday, 27 Jul 2003 04:48)
<<Whos right? You 5 people, or the thousands ... >>
You are correct that the number of favorable responses to Warren's work outnumbers unfavorable responses perhaps by a ten to one ratio. God's truth is not determined by the number of supporters.
<<The only part you know of Saddleback church is the "seeker friendly" part. Which, by the way, I think is cool for those who are intimidated by God.>>
True, I cannot know Saddleback in its fullness. I CAN, however, know Mr. Warren's writings and programs which he markets across the United States and throughout the world.
<<Some people were raised by RELIGIOUS fanatics, probably not unlike yourselves, and fear a God who will condemn them.>>
You are resorting to an ad hominem attack. I would add that Paul, Elijah and Ezekiel were fanatics in their own way. I would also add that unbelievers have a reason to fear a God who will condemn them. Rick Warren removes that fear, and he has thereby tampered with the bible message.
<<True, God will condemn the nations and those who choose not to accept his son into their hearts. Rick shows these people not the vengeful God who will cast people to hell. Thats only ONE part of God. And, its the last part Of God. Its a part we do not know, so why would he, or anyone with sense want to teach on it.>>
Paul said in Acts 20, to the Ephesian elders, that he had not hesitated to teach the "whole counsel" of the word of God. You are admitting that Rick Warren has shrunk or changed the message. The whole counsel of the word of God must include not only the love of God, but also the holiness of God, the wrath of God and the desperate state of sinners (and no, I am not even a Calvinist!). Anything less is a disservice to our God who gave us the entire scriptures.
<<Pastor Rick, introduces Jesus Christ, and the peace of the Gospel to people. He does it skillfully, as a man who HAS BEEN anointed by God.>>
But is he introducing the real Jesus?
<<Greg Laurie is teaching at saddleback this weekend.>>
Greg Laurie's appearance at Saddleback says nothing about Saddleback. Go to the web site of Sandy Simpson at www.deceptioninthechurch.com. Read the sermon by
Jacob Prasch entitled "A Chink in the Armor". You will see that Greg Laurie, a fellow believer, also appears on TBN with Paul Crouch. Just because a fellow believer rides in Ahab's chariot does not mean that we need to jump aboard.
<<Judge not, lest ye be judged.>>
You quoted Matthew 7:1. What about John 7:24, which tells us to judge with righteous judgment. Again, Mr. Simpson's web site has an entire section of articles devoted to the discussion of when it is appropriate to publicly examine the content of public teachings.
<<I pray that God would truly open the eyes of your hearts, and show you the way. Not to find the dirt on people, but to see the good in people. Go the way Jesus Taught. Go the way God wills.>>
Dear friend, I would also direct you to the web site of Hughie Seaborn, a brother in Australia who cared enough about false teaching in his church to stand up against it even though it cost him his church membership. You will find at that site a very good article, entitled Warnings of Deception, which discusses the extensive passages in the New Testament warning us to maintain sound doctrine. The article makes the
point better than I could ever make it here. The link is:
<<I bet he dislikes when his children argue about the way they present their Father.>>
I am sure that our heavenly father really DOES hate it when we argue over externals or nonessentials. The scriptures make this clear. Yet God hates it all the more when those who profess to be His do not take a stand for the truth of God's Word and tolerate subtractions from and alterations of this word.
You state as well that your copy of Purpose Driven Life has over 2000 scripture references. What if I could show you that these scripture references were hand picked from paraphrases which are inaccurate and that Rick Warren was using these inaccurte paraphrases deliberately? Would that change your opinion? What if I could show you patently false statements from Purpose Driven Life? Would that change your opinion?
>>By Jim Gieseke (Sunday, 27 Jul 2003 07:09)
I would note that Greg Laurie appearing at Saddleback DOES say something about Saddleback and Rick Warren. Greg Laurie is almost as bad as Warren, Meyer, Hybels, Schuller, and others. ( http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/ bdm/exposes/laurie/general.htm ).
Warren uses lowercase "H" for He and Him when referring to Christ. He quotes the aberrent/heretical "The Message" dumb-down of God's Holy Word.
We, as believers, are to stand in the face of these heresies.
>>By HawkeyeLonewolf (Friday, 3 Oct 2003 08:43)
>Thats funny.My copy of purpose driven life has over 2000 scripture
>references in it, translated into plenty of versions. HOW WEIRD!!!
I am now on day 22 of Purpose Driven Life. I must say that I am realy annoyed by Warren's use of so many translations. Warren justifies it by saying that this way he tries to bring the old passages alive. I would say that his real reason to use so many translations is to have them fit his book and his argument better.
These new translations (or paraphrases) instead of making "old" paggages "alive" simply neuter them. Especially annoting is the Message. I seems to me that it was written to make the Bible suitable fo reading on the Oprah show.
For example it translates "breaking bread" into "common meal", and this way obscures the fact that breaking bread was actually a celebration of Lord's Supper. A "common meal" I can have every day at my workplace.
Has anyone read the instruction how to become a believer in one of the earlier chapters. It is WAY TOO SIMPLISTIC. I would think that proper exposition of the Gospel is necessarry before the call to accept Christ.
Overall I think that this book is OK, but just OK. The general principles are OK, but it lacks theological depth. But that could be expected because Warren seems not to like the doctrine too much.
I will see what happens to my church after it goes through the 40 day program.
In the meantime I am going to read through the Westmister Catechism to see how the 17th Century writing about the purpose of life compares to the Rick's 21st Century stuff.
>>By Curly Fries (Monday, 6 Oct 2003 18:20)
For those of you who say Rick Warren's end justifies his means, I suppose you do not believe God is big enough to continue offering salvation through scritpural methods. Check out the statistics on "seeker" churches. WCCC and Saddleback have a very small percentage attending "believers' " services. At Willow Creek, only 5-6000 attend Wed Thurs "New Community" believer services. Weekend "seeker" attendance is 24-25,000. Even the "New Community" services are watered down. The same ratio holds true at Saddleback. I also find it interesting that both WCCC and Saddleback leadership are big into publishing. Rick Warren personally owns Pastors.com as a for profit corporation. He lives in the canyons above Forest Lake. He has sold out to popular psychology and market forces. Bill Hybels and WCCC have also sold out to popular psychology and market forces and also to New Age and Quaker based mysticism.
The reformation was a result of this same senario. The money changers had taken over the church and the reformers were speaking out for scriptural truths.
I find it very wrong in how Warren changes from one translation to another. He also takes scripture out of context. He proposes a "membership covenant" that includes "obeying leadership". He bases "obeying leadership" on a Galations verse that is talking about the Christians being mislead by secular leadership. The call to follow church leaders is just a warning about following the secular leaders. It says nothing about being a blind follower of church leaders. He also teaches a "earthly rewards" based service, including public recognition. His discipleship teaching include signing a "discipleship commitment certificate" that includes "I will tithe." The certificate is witnessed by the Senior Pastor and class teacher and then your name is announced to the congregation. Scripture directly states that the "right hand is not to know what the left hand is doing" when it comes to giving. The current leadership volunteers (bible study leaders, etc)are required to complete the class and sign the certificate to continue in leadership service. The announcement of the leaders names appears as an endorsement of the process. Those with defined spiritual gifts are "drafted" into service except if the gift is knowledge or administration. If you have the gift of knowledge or administration, you are shown the door if you "QUESTION" the leadership of the church.
I have been through this apostacy twice before and left for a different church. I am facing it again and this time I am staying and attempting to "blow the trumpet"(Ez 33:3). Read Col 2:8. I have read both Warren books and see many biblical truths laced with popular psychology. Psychology is a flesh oriented discipline. We are commanded to "walk in the Spirit" not in the flesh.
I could go on and on but wont.
>>By Idadho (Monday, 13 Oct 2003 01:57)
There are many different views on what is right and wrong in this world we live in. God will judge each of us on how we live this life and gives us choices. I have made many bad choices and many good choices in this life. One of the worst choices I made was being judgemental of others. Because of that attitude, years of my life were spent outside of God's will without peace. The best choice I made was to ask Him to forgive me and He did. Today, I can listen to many different ideas and be less judgemental toward others like Rick Warren. I am reading "The Purpose Driven Life " now and am on Chapter 25. What is important in this study is not Rick Warren.
What is important is how can I here the Holy Spirit speek to me through this study and apply what I learn to my life.
Yes, I am to be descerning and try the spirit to see if it is of God. God tells me to study His Word and rightly divide it then apply what is learned to my life.
A very powerful verse to share that has helped me to humbly accept all of what God wants me to do with my life.
M I C A H Chapter 6:8 ------- He has shown you man what is good and what the Lord requires of you,
D O J U S T L E Y, L O V E M E R C Y, and W A L K H U M B L Y with your God.
In HIS name for He is worthy
>>By Shifter (Monday, 10 Nov 2003 22:44)
As I have studied the book personally, I have found error after error after error. Anyone who knows the Word of God well and loves it will not be impressed by this simplistic, feel good "gospel." In fact, I would go so far as to say that it is another gospel, not the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Sound doctrine is not taught at all, and in fact, some things Rick Warren says are downright false. He misinterprets the Scriptures and does not rightly divide the Word of God.
Right off the bat, in chapter three, pg. 34 in the Purpose Driven Life, RW gets us to downplay doctrine when, in discussing what will happen to us when we stand before the Lord, he says, "From the Bible we can surmise that God will ask us two crucial questions: First, 'What did you do with my Son, Jesus Christ?' God won't ask about your religious background or doctrinal views. The only thing that will matter is, did you accept what Jesus did for you and did you learn to love and trust him?"
OK. So he's saying that doctrinal views aren't important. That should cause a huge red flag to go up in anyone's mind who believes the truth. If that's the case, what's the point of the rest of the Bible? The Bible IS a doctrinal view! RW "surmises" that God will ask these two questions and that this is all that matters. He's merely guessing because the Bible doesn't actually say what RW says here. The Bible says, "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." (1 Timothy 4:16, KJV) Hmmm, doctrine isn't "important"? I would have to say that our salvation is much more than what we "did" with Jesus. Even the way that RW says that is irreverent and trite. In fact, I find much of what he says to be disrespectful of the Lord. He trivializes our King and takes away His glory and splendor. So typical of the age we live in. Salvation is far more than "accepting what Jesus did." Lots of people "accept" it as a historical fact without ever coming to a saving knowledge of who Christ is and what He did for us.
Jesus told us that he will say this to many that come to him at that day, "Not everyone that saith unto me, 'Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in they name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-23). Quite different from the teaching of RW! Paul tells us, "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:8,9) Paul repeats himself this message is so important! So I would think that Paul is saying we are to examine what we are being told and that it's not unloving or wrong to do so.
These are just a FEW of the errors I have found. There are many. In order to find them, you must have your Bible in hand and be willing to look up every Scripture RW quotes and read them in entirety in the context that they are written. This will require much work. RW purposely puts the Scripture references in the back of the book, so every time you want to look them up, you must flip back there, find the chapter it's in and then the number. Tiresome to say the least. I get the distinct impression he wanted to make it difficult so people wouldn't question him but just take him at his word. Also, have a reputable translation of the Bible to look up the Scriptures. Then, of course, you must ask God to give you understanding into His Word. He will, if you really want to know the truth. He promises to do so.
As for the question, "Whos right? You 5 people, or the thousands who have dedicated their lives to The True Living God, Jesus Christ, thorugh a message taught by HIS SERVANT Rick Warren"?
Jesus said, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat; Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:13,14)
I once heard this said to me: Do you know why the road to destruction is so wide? Because so many are on it!
If we fail to warn others about this book, what I have heard called, The Purpose Driven Lie, then we will be held accountable. But the only way to refute it is by the Word of God. God's Holy Word is powerful. It will speak for itself and not "return void." If you are as concerned as I am about what is being taught worldwide through this book, then you must study it and be prepared to give an answer! I encourage all true students of the Word to do so. God Bless!
>>By goldylocks (Tuesday, 11 Nov 2003 02:26)
Shifter said: There are many different views on what is right and wrong in this world we live in. God will judge each of us on how we live this life and gives us choices. I have made many bad choices and many good choices in this life. One of the worst choices I made was being judgemental of others. Because of that attitude, years of my life were spent outside of God's will without peace. The best choice I made was to ask Him to forgive me and He did. Today, I can listen to many different ideas and be less judgemental toward others like Rick Warren. I am reading "The Purpose Driven Life " now and am on Chapter 25. What is important in this study is not Rick Warren.
To quote Steve Brown: This is from the pit of Hell and smells like smoke!
"There are many different views on what is right and wrong in this world we live in."
Sure. But only ONE view matters: God's. And He has revealed it ONLY in His Word. All the other "views" are just God's view filtered and watered down by men -- or selfish views fabricated by men.
"One of the worst choices I made was being judgemental of others."
Why??? Christ has commanded us to -- insofar as their works are concerned. We can judge the fruit, not the heart. No one is saying Rick Warren is demon-possessed and going to Hell. However, we can rightly discern that his work is flawed when compared to God's Word.
"Today, I can listen to many different ideas and be less judgemental toward others like Rick Warren."
So the ideas of Joseph Smith, Adolf Hitler, etc. are acceptable to you? Or do you pass judgment on them to protect yourself from their ideals? Just because these guys are so far from the truth doesn't make the person who is just off-the-mark correct. That's relativism and is wrong. God has set the bar. Period. Missing that mark is missing that mark. End of discussion.
>>By HawkeyeLonewolf (Wednesday, 12 Nov 2003 16:54)
Here is a rough draft of a critique of the Purpose-DrivenTM Life proving it to be APOSTASY. Francis Schaeffer wrote: "in a post-Christian world and in an often a post-Christian church, it is imperative to point out with love where aspostasy lies ... we must call apostasy by its proper name."
I have done extensive research exposing the error of such teachers as Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, Robert Schuller, et al, and how most of them are tied to a globalist - Dr. Peter F. Drucker. Satan is bent on destroying Christianity, and he is attempting to do it by infiltrating the church with a satanic philosphy - that of Hegel. I'll be happy to e-mail you with in-depth material. My e-mail address is firstname.lastname@example.org.
Just one example of how Warren twists the scripture in Purpose-DrivenTM Life:
Page 58: "The Bible says, "Whoever accepts and trusts the Son gets in on everything, life complete and forever! John 3:36 The Message"
The King James Version of John 3:36 reads: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
Warren misrepresents hell as "eternity apart from God forever" Page 37.
There is no mention in this book of a place where there is weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth.
God has placed limits and measures on the relationships that we have. We are to
"come out from among them (unbelievers) and be ye separate saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you." 2 Cor 6:17.
Num 16:21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye learned; and avoid them.
In spite of these scriptures, Warren states: "Relationships must have priority in your life above everything else." Page 124.
What about: Matt 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.(KJV)
or: 1 Cor 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.(KJV)
I can go on and on - for more info, please contact me via e-mail (address above).
Praying blessings on you all. Bob
>>By Robert Klenck, M.D. (Monday, 24 Nov 2003 17:41)
Here's the rough draft that I spoke of:
Rick Warren’s Purpose Driven® Life – A Rebuttal by Robert E. Klenck, M.D.
[My comments are in brackets.]
No wrath, judgment, human depravity, repentance, reverential fear of God, or a literal burning hell. None of the Biblical limits or measures regarding human relationships or commands to carry out Biblical separation are mentioned. The closest that Pastor Warren comes to this is on page 150, when he misapplies the scripture regarding heretics (Tit 3:10), stating that “divisive” people should be confronted, as opposed to rejecting heretics after the second admonition. On page 31, he states that our purpose is to be our standard, and on page 186, he declares that we must accept the Bible as the authoritative standard for our lives. Yet, he doesn’t tell us which of the fifteen translations and paraphrases that he quotes from is “the authoritative standard for our lives.”]
[The following scriptures are not referred to:
Acts 17:11 These (Bereans) were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.(KJV)
2 Pet 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.(KJV)]
9 “Whenever God wanted to prepare someone for his purposes, he took 40 days:”
10 [Noah’s “purpose” – to preach righteousness for 120 years, and provide a means to escape the coming judgment. His life was not “transformed by 40 days of rain.”]
Spies – [Num. 14 :10 came back after searching the land for 40 days, started murmurings, were killed with plagues.]
David – 1 Sam 17
Elijah – 1 King 19
Ninevah – Jonah 3]
“Jesus was empowered by 40 days in the wilderness.” [– wrong: He was tempted. Mk 1:13]
“ The disciples were transformed by forty days with Jesus after His resurrection.” [versus on the day of Pentecost.]
11 “Real spiritual growth is never an isolated, individualistic pursuit.” [What about Noah and John the Baptist – their ministries were individualistic in nature.]
12 “… let’s sign a covenant together. … Let’s get started together!”
17 “… everything got started in him and finds its purpose in him. Col 1:16 (Msg)”
[Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (KJV)]
“It’s not about you.”
[The rest of the book IS all about you.]
19 “Self-help books, even Christian ones, usually offer the same predictable steps to finding your life’s purpose: Consider your dreams. Clarify your values. Set some goals. Figure out what you are good at. Aim high. Go for it! Be disciplined. Believe you can achieve your goals. Involve others. Never give up.” …“This is not a self-help book.”
313 What is a Life Purpose statement?
-summarizes God’s purposes for your life [considers your dreams]
-points the direction of your life [believe that you can achieve your goals]
-defines “success” for you [sets goals]
-clarifies your roles [go for it]
-expresses your S.H.A.P.E [finds out what you are good at]
[Also, the majority of this book is about involving others. Thus, from Warren’s own definition, this IS a self-help book.]
[Regarding the Life Purpose Statement:
Ron Lippitt (a transformational Marxist), … developed the idea of a “preferred vision” … All of the corporate “vision” and “mission’setting” consultations of the 1980s would later descend from this practice.” Art Kleiner, The Age of Heretics: Heroes, Outlaws, and the Forerunners of Corporate Change, p. 41.]
[Matt 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.(KJV)]
21 “The purpose of your life fits into a much larger, cosmic purpose that God has designed for eternity.” [sounds New Age.}
29 “Others (people) are driven by peer pressure, always worried by what others might think. Unfortunately, those who follow the crowd usually get lost in it.”
[Claiming that this is not group think, when it is exactly that – group think.]
30 ‘Without God, life has no purpose, and without purpose, life has no meaning. Without meaning, life has no significance or hope. ... The greatest tragedy is not death, but life without purpose. … The greatest tragedy is not death, but life without purpose.”
[No, life without God is the greatest tragedy.]
31 “Your purpose becomes the standard you use to evaluate which activities are essential and which aren’t.
[No, the blessed Word of God is to be the standard we use to evaluate every aspect of our lives.]
“Without a clear purpose you have no foundation on which you base decisions, allocate your time, and use your resources.”
[No, once again, the blessed Word of God is to be our foundation.]
32 “The power of focusing can be seen in light. … When light is focused … as a laser beam, it can cut through steel.”
37. [Hell defined –] “…if you reject his love [Arminian], forgiveness, and salvation, you will spend eternity apart from God forever.” [– wrong concept of hell]
“Tragically, many people will have to endure eternity without God because they chose to live without him here on earth.”
[eternity without God – wrong concept of hell]
[they chose-false Arminian viewpoint – God chooses us]
p. 85 – “eternal punishment” [no further elaboration of this concept]
p. 112 – “eternity in hell” [not defined]
38. [Weird “vibes”:] “Every act in our lives strikes some chord that will vibrate in eternity.”
46. “Luke 12:48b (NIV)
From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.”
[The Bible really says: Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
-worthy of striped/beaten with stripes – areas avoided by Warren highlighted]
53. “Pro 16:4 (NLT) The LORD has made everything for his own purposes.”
[Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.(KJV)]
“What is the glory of God? It is who God is. It is the essence of His nature, the weight of His importance, the radiance of His splendor, the demonstration of His power, and the atmosphere of His other intrinsic, eternal qualities.”
[judgment, anger, wrath (areas all avoided by Warren)]
54. God is … creative. [-not The Creator]
54-55. [Sin - (defined)] – “All sin, at its root, is failing to give God glory.”
55. “There are many ways to bring glory to God, but they can be summarized in God’s five purposes for your life.”
[-- Thus, since sin has been defined as failing to give God glory, then fulfilling God’s five purposes for your life (as summarized by Rick Warren), becomes equivalent to not sinning.]
“God’s five purposes for your life:
Loving other Believers
Becoming like Christ
Telling others about Him”
57. “Living the rest of your life for the glory of God…will sometimes mean choosing a difficult path instead of an easy one.”
[No, not sometimes – always:
2 Tim 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.(KJV)
Matt 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.(KJV)]
58. [Arminian – ] “ … if you will just make the choice to live for him.”
[God is misrepresented, thus, those who choose to live for Him, are living for a loving God, who is not holy, angry or a God of righteous judgment, they have not been commanded to repent, for them sin has been misdefined, and they have no fear of a literal, burning hell.]
Furthermore, this book says:
“First believe. Believe God loves you and made you for his purposes. Believe you’re not an accident. Believe you were made to last forever. Believe God has chosen you to have a relationship with Jesus, who died on the cross for you. …
[Why? – no mention of sins and propiation here – the reason behind His sacrifice on the cross not explained – the fact that in order to execute the righteous judgment for our sins, that His sacrifice was required.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.(KJV)]
… “Believe that no matter what you’ve done, God wants to forgive you.”
[What about the unpardonable sin? -
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.(KJV)]
[Repentance and remission of sins were not mentioned:
Luke 24:46-7 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.(KJV)]
[Warren goes on to quote The Message:]
“The Bible says, “Whoever accepts and trusts the Son gets in on everything, life complete and forever! John 3:36 The Message”
[What the Bible really says:
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.(KJV)]
[Warren avoids the mention of God’s wrath.
64. “He wants you to enjoy life, not just endure it. The reason you are able to enjoy pleasure is that God made you in his image.”
[Firstly, man was made in the image of God PRIOR to the fall of man – man is no longer in the image of God. Once again, the Bible says:
Eccl 2:1 I said in mine heart, Go to now, I will prove thee with mirth, therefore enjoy pleasure: and, behold, this also is vanity.(KJV)
Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;(KJV)
These are a couple of examples of the numerous verses exhorting believers to endure, not enjoy. Another:
2 Tim 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.(KJV)]
64-5 [Inclusive of Catholicism and charismatic “worship” – stating:] “Worship can include … “ceremonies, candles, [charismatic] healing, miracles, and ecstatic experiences .”
[Also, in Appendix 3, p. 326 – Warren quotes/utilizes Catholic Bible translations in the text of this book.]
[October 12-13, 1999 interview with Hank Hanegraaff, Warren describes churches such as Vineyard, and Melodyland as “good Bible churches.” – Churches that Hanegraaf would usually come against for their non-Biblical ecstatic experiences.]
“God loves all kinds of music because he invented it all”
[Did God create the satanic rock and roll lyrics that are played over our airwaves today?]
73 “Jesus’ sacrifice” [– reason for it not mentioned.]
“thank him for what he has done” [what He has done or why – not defined.]
75 “Anytime you reject any part of yourself, you are rejecting God’s wisdom and sovereignty in creating you.”
[Matt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.(KJV)
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.(KJV)]
76 “He knows you are incapable of being perfect or sinless.”
[Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.(KJV)]
Verse to Remember: “The Lord is pleased with those who worship him and trust his love.” Psalm 147:11 (CEV)
[The KJV states: Ps 147:11 The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy.(KJV)
God wants us to have a reverential fear of Him]
**80-1 [Rick Warren, by his own definition, is not surrendered to God. ] “You know you’re surrendered to God when you rely on God to work things out instead of trying to manipulate others, force your agenda, and control the situation.”
[Warren, by using the facilitators who are trained to use manipulative techniques in their small groups, in order to force his agenda, has just defined himself as not surrendered to God.]
81 “our self-centered nature.” – [Contradicts p 75 – which stated that we are not to reject any part of ourselves.]
84 Verse to Remember: “Surrender your whole being to him to be used for righteous purposes.” Romans 6:13b (TEV)
[Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.(KJV)]
89 “Practicing the presence of God is a skill, a habit you can develop.”
Benedictine monks use hourly chimes of a clock to remind them to pause and pray “the hour prayer.”
93 God encourages us to complain about Him, second guess Him, accuse Him, and argue with Him, and on page 97, to wrestle with Him.
[Does He really encourage us to do these things?]
98 The truth is -- you are as close to God as you choose to be.
[Once again, OUR CHOICE is emphasized. -
1 Cor 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:(KJV) – it is God who chose us, and is placing us for service – not we ourselves.
John 15:16 (Jesus speaking) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.(KJV)]
98 [Implies that God won’t allow pain in your life, if you’re truly devoted to Him. ] – “If you’ve just been going through the motions spiritually, don’t be surprised when God allows pain in your life.”
104 [Encourages you to open up your mind to that which is untrue] – different translations and paraphrases of the Bible. [Better to study Greek and Hebrew, so that you might find the intended meaning of the scripture by moving closer to the original texts, rather than stepping further away from those texts.]
104-5 [Twists] 1 Cor 14:16-17: “Being sensitive to unbelievers who visit your worship gatherings is a biblical command. To ignore this command is to be both disobedient and unloving.”
[1 Cor 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.(KJV)]
“Worship Can Be a Witness” – Purpose-Driven Church (PDC) p. 241 – “More people are won to Christ by feeling God’s presence than by all of our apologetic arguments combined. … It is the sense of God’s presence that melts hearts and explodes mental barriers.” (No scripture referred to.)
[This is what the bible really says about how people come to faith:
Ps 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.(KJV)
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.(KJV)]
Purpose-DrivenTM Church (PDC) p. 244 -> “… the message doesn’t have to be compromised, just understandable. … Changing the environment could be done through … the Bible translation you preach from.”
PDC P. 247 : “Three nonnegotiable elements of a seeker service:
(1) treat unbelievers with love and respect,
(2) relate the service to their needs,
and (3) share the message in a practical, understandable manner. All other elements are secondary issues that churches shouldn’t get hung up on. [So is doctrine important?]
PDC p. 249 Spiritual maturity means giving up your absolutes (compromising) for the sake of unbelievers. – “Offering a seeker service … requires members who are willing to create a safe environment for unbelievers at the expense of their own preferences, traditions, and comfort. Enormous spiritual maturity is required to voluntarily move out of a comfort zone.”
108 [Ascribes Psalm 22:1 to David], “Yet David frequently complained of God’s apparent absence:” [when this prophetic Psalm is actually the words of Jesus: Ps 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? (KJV)]
109 Sin defined as: “disobedience,
conflict with others [not limited to other believers, [Then he references a scripture regarding Christians:
1 Cor 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.(KJV), [we may even have conflict with other believers ie Paul and Barnabas],
busyness, [no scripture quoted]
friendship with the world, [Warren doesn’t define this, plus merely calling this a sin softens the message: James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.(KJV)]
and other sins.
“Will you continue to love, trust, obey, and worship God, even when you have no sense of his presence or visible evidence of his work in your life?”
110 “Did you know that admitting your hopelessness to God can be a statement of faith?
Ps 116:10 I believed, therefore have I spoken: I was greatly afflicted:(KJV) [No, our belief is our statement of faith – merely acknowledging our own depravity is not enough – we must believe on Him:
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.(KJV)]
[David believed, THUS he confessed his own depravity – he humbled himself before almighty God.]
112 Jesus took all of mankind’s sin and guilt upon himself,
[Universalism - as opposed to Limited Atonement:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.(KJV) – does not say the sins of all, the scripture says the sins of MANY].
113 2 Cor 5:21 “Christ was without sin, but for our sake God made him share your sin in order that in union with him we might share the righteousness of God.(TEV)”
[Actually, 2 Cor 5:21 says: “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (KJV)”
[Thus, according to Warren, we become equivalent with God – it is supposed to be “in Him”, not “sharing His righteousness”]
118 James 1:18 And it was a happy day for him when he gave us our new lives through the truth of his Word, and we became, as it were, the first children in his new family.(TLB)
[James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.(KJV)]
1 Pet 1:3
All honor to God, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; for it is his boundless mercy that has given us the privilege of being born again so that we are now members of God's own family. Now we live in the hope of eternal life because Christ rose again from the dead.
1 Pet 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
“The invitation to be part of God’s family is universal.”
[Versus Limited Atonement
[Is it?: Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.(KJV)
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.(KJV)
Did He save the whole world. Does “the world” here mean everybody?]
124 Relationships must have priority in your life above everything else.
[There are Biblical frameworks within which relationships must remain: None are mentioned in Mr. Warren’s book – except when he stated “that we are to confront those who cause division among Christians.”(p. 150) (the text referred to actually concerns heretics: - please see the notes regarding p. 150 below)
2 Cor 6:14-17
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.(KJV)
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
1 Cor 5:11-13
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.(KJV)]
125 Mother Teresa quoted: “It’s not what you do, but how much love you put into it that matters.”
[Does this mean that prostitution is okay, as long as it is done with love? No:
Rom 10:2-3 (referring to Israel)
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.(KJV)
Like Israel, Mother Theresa had a zeal for God, and had love but, it was not according to knowledge, and she did not submit herself unto the righteousness of God.]
130 “The Bible knows nothing of solitary saints or spiritual hermits isolated from other believers and deprived of fellowship.”
[Obviously, Rick doesn’t know his Bible well:
John the Baptist, Stephen, Jeremiah, Noah, Ezekiel, Paul, etc..
1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,(KJV)]
131 You discover your role in life through your relationships with others. [A shift from God to man.]
“(an organ) cannot exist on its own, and neither can you.”
133 “It (the church) is a lab for practicing unselfish, sympathetic love.
… the New Testament truth of being connected and dependent on each other.17 [Our dependency should be on Christ, and Him alone, our relationships with each other should be the natural outflowing of our relationship with Christ.]
17 Eph 4:16
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
1 Cor 12:25
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
136 “He created the church to meet your five deepest needs:
a purpose to live for,
people to live with,
principles to live by,
a profession to live out,
and power to live on.”
[No scriptural reference for this statement. – Wrong concept of church:
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:(KJV)
The church is designed for BELIEVERS, who are then taught how to yield to the Word of God, rather than how to fulfill their fleshly lusts (felt needs).]
137 “The Christian life … includes a commitment to other Christians.”
[True, we should commit ourselves to a body of believers, but not a false body based on the humanistic model of Peter F. Drucker.]
Ch. 18 [All about small “cell” groups, and “community”.]
Authenticity (transparency). p. 139
depending on each other. p.140
Accountability (to each other, not to God) p.140
139 Jesus ministered in the context of a small group of disciples. ...he knew twelve is about the maximum size you can have in a small group if everyone is to participate. ... every Christian needs to be involved in a small group within their church ... This is where real community takes place.
140 “Make this your common practice: Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you can live together whole and healed.” James 5:16 (Msg.)
[The Bible really says:
James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.(KJV)
(Nothing about making this a common practice, or confessing all of your sins on a regular basis to a group of people.)]
142 “When … our faith falters, that’s when we need believing friends the most. We need a small group of friends to have faith in God for us and to pull us through.”
[No, we don’t need anybody to have faith in God for us – we must have a personal faith, and God will pull us through – once again, Warren tries to shift our dependency from on God, to depending on our fellow man:
Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.(KJV)]
143 “You were created for community.”
145 James 3:18 (The Message) You can develop a healthy, robust community that lives right with God and enjoy its results only if you do the hard work of getting along with each other, treating each other with dignity and honor. [tolerance]
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. (KJV)
146 Gal 6:1-2 Brothers and sisters, if someone in your group does something wrong, you who are spiritual should go to that person and gently help make him right again. (NCV)
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.(KJV)
147 “…the tunnel of conflict is the passageway to intimacy in any relationship.”
147-8 1 Cor 5: 3-12 You must not simply look the other way and hope it goes away on its own. Bring it out in the open and deal with it … (The Message)
1 Cor 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
avoids verse 13: But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.(KJV)
150 The fellowship of the church is more important than any individual.
God is very clear that we are to confront those who cause division among Christians.19
19 Titus 3:10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.(NIV)
[The King James version of this verse reads:
Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;(KJV)
So, anyone considered “divisive” is considered to be a heretic.]
150 I urge you to make a group covenant that includes the nine characteristics of biblical fellowship.
- share our true feelings (authenticity)
- encourage each other (mutuality)
- support each other (sympathy)
- forgive each other (mercy)
- speak the truth in love (honesty)
- admit our weaknesses (humility)
- respect our differences (courtesy)
- not gossip (confidentiality)
- make group a priority (frequency)
Matt 5:34 Swear not al all…37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.(KJV)
(Fellowship) means giving up our self-centeredness and independence in order to become interdependent.
[A shift from being dependent upon God, to being dependent upon the group.]
152 “Relationships are always worth restoring.”
“Paul taught that our ability to get along with others is a mark of spiritual maturity.” Rom 15:5 (MSG):
Rom 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:(KJV)
155 Conflict resolution: “Nod that you understand even when you don’t agree.”
[In other words, affirm that which you do not agree with – LIE!]
158 [Putting aside differences for the sake of relationship: Dialectic Synthesis]:
“Emphasise reconciliation, not resolution. …Reconciliation focuses on the relationship, while resolution focuses on the problem. … We can reestablish a relationship even when we are unable to resolve our differences. .. we can disagree without being disagreeable. … we can walk arm in arm without seeing eye-to-eye on every issue.
38 But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.
39 And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;
40 And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God.
161 Focus on what we have in common, not our differences.
“…for unity’s sake we must never let differences divide us.”
285 Jesus, speaking to His disciples: “He said in essence, “The details of my return are none of your business. What is your business is the mission I’ve given you. Focus on that!” Acts 1:7-8 (NIV) quoted, However He gave them some details of His return in Matthew 24: 36-42 (and others).
300 Shift from local thinking to global thinking.
304 “What steps can I take to prepare to go on a short-term missions experience in the next year.”
[All Christians are not called to be missionaries:
1 Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?(KJV)]
This agenda comes from Peter F.Drucker, a humanist who has influenced Saddleback (and numerous other “churches.)” – His goal is to gain global equality via communitarianism – a blending of communism and capitalism that results in communism. The humanists believe that they can attain worldwide peace and prosperity (apart from God). Regarding peace, the humanists believe that national sovereignties and religious differences are the causes of all wars. In order for the Christian church to fit into all of this, it must abandon it’s position of moral absolutism and focus on relationship-building (ecumenism.)
Lord bless, Bob
>>By Robert Klenck, M.D. (Monday, 24 Nov 2003 17:59)
Everyone needs to think logically here.
First of all, just because one explores deeper into the Merciful side of God, doesn't mean they are preaching a "feel good gospel." This statement is too extreme.
I agree that we as the Body must present God as He is, with respect to all aspects of His personality. (Feel Good and not) However, did not Jesus himself reach out to the sick, demonic, and dead with His mercy and kindness first and foremost?
Before they got a sermon on the wrath and judgement of God, and were "fully informed" on ALL parts of God's character, did not Jesus first show them his loving kindness..... and THAT was what compelled them to believe? Christ himself gives an example of how God works. In fact, in most places, I don't recall seeing that Jesus even gave a message on the judgement to the people he ministered to (See Matt 9:21-22, 15:30-30) So why is Mr. Warren a heretic for following the example of Christ?
By calling Mr. Warren a "false prophet" because he puts an emphasis on the mercy of God before judgement, is to charge Christ himself with the same crime.
When the disciples were wanting to know, of all the commandments there were, which one is the most important? What was Jesus' response? (Mr 12:30) He said above all to love the Lord with all your soul, mind, and strength. Is Rick Warren in any way hindering this message? No, in fact, he's encouraging just that.
And anyone who "gets it" (what he is trying to say in His book) will understand they are called, as believers, to seek God's word and God more deeply.... Thus, they will get a thorough "Education" on the matter of the judgement of God.
Surely, with that said, no Bible believing person would disagree.
>>By Elizabeth McPherson (Friday, 9 Jan 2004 06:14)
The problem is, Mr. Warren gives a complete misinterpretation of God. God loves us through His judgement -- they are inseparable. And Mr. Warren NEVER gets to the judgement part. He simply paints a "God is my bestest buddy" image, twisting scripture with PATENTLY false interpretations of His Holy word. He's playing fast and loose with Scripture. Surely, with that said, no Bible believing person would disagree.
He also is NOT encouraging people to "Love the Lord..." -- He's misleading them that God loves them AND is incomplete without their acceptance of Him.
Instead of sowing seed as instructed, he has come up with his own plan and is scattering candy on the ground to make it more appealing and acceptable -- because his measure of "success" is numbers on Sunday. Which, as stats show, are NOT increasing at all. Sure they are at his mega-church (just like they do at a new mall when it opens and the honest mom and pop stores shut down). But the number of people "churched" overall is not growing.
And who cares how many people are "in church" each week. Big deal. If church isn't doing what church is supposed to do, then we might as well lump them in their with movie attendance each week. Top 10 Church Audiences this weekend are...
Why, why, why would ANY Christian attend Willow Creek, Saddleback, or any other market driven church on Sunday is beyond me.
If the services are "seeker sensitive", targeting the lost, then Christians don't need to hear that message. They are merely "props" for the entertainment put on for the masses.
And you cannot honestly say there is worship going on there. That worship is tainted by the deliberate inclusion of non-believers. Does God want to hear a chorus of believers and unbelievers singing repetitious, inane choruses? Or does He want those who love Him to worship Him?
Rick Warren, Warrenism and Willow Creek, and the whole mega-church cancer are so far removed from Biblical Christianity.
>>By HawkeyeLonewolf (Saturday, 17 Jan 2004 17:48)
Give me a break! If Rick Warren is a false teacher then so is Billy Graham, so is Max Lucado, so is Bill Bright, so is the greatest evangelical new testament scholar of the day Dr. N.T. Wright. For those who support and encourage a false teacher must themselves be deceived. So am I - I must be a false teacher. So is the majority of the evangelical Christian world....
Give me a break - there are heritics in the world to try and create intelligent arguments against. Try some outside the pen who sit on the fense. How much have you done for the kingdom? Other than to post tantrum on an obscure webpost that really deserves little response - unfortunately it is late.
>>By PastorJCF (Sunday, 15 Feb 2004 05:06)
Amazingly, all the people you mention: Rick Warren, Billy Graham, Max Lucado, and Bill Bright ALL have major problems in their ministries where they deviate from the clear teaching of Scripture.
There are heretics in the world. But they are LESS dangerous than the wolves in sheep's clothing that we have in the midst of the church.
Sadly, as you pointed out PastorJCF, most of the "church" is being led astray by these and others.
>>By HawkeyeLonewolf (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 03:58)
I am always amazed at how little christians realize that the "great deception" is not from the outside coming into to the church...but from within the church to decieve. Paul said even in his day they had infiltrated the church. Wheat and tares look very similar. We are supposed to be wise as serpents and as gentle as doves. To call Rick Warren a false teacher is not an insult, it is an observation based on the lies presented in his very own books. His great mentor Peter Drucker is a Humanist with a globalist agenda which is totally antichrist . Rick Warren is apostate. If he associates with fellow apostates, qoutes apostates, tells us his mentor is a devote Secular Humanist well I guess this pretty much sums up his belief network and it sure is'nt the the Bible(KJV). We are warned in Gods word that the road is narrow, to those who point out how excepted this "Purpose Driven Garbage" is should pay attention to their own words because Mr. Warren and his kind are working overtime to BROADEN the narrow way
>>By beanieweenie (Monday, 19 Apr 2004 19:38)
I live in the heart of saddleback country. My husband and I too feel Rick warren is a false teacher. I think we are the only people in Orange county who feel that way.
It is VERY refreshing to here that others feel the same.
If anyone knows of a church in Orange county that is not saddleback infested please let me know
>>By soccermom (Saturday, 15 May 2004 16:45)
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Thursday March 11
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IF THIS DOESN"T CONCERN US, then nothing will
Visit the Youth Specialties Web site!
INFO FOUND ON THIS
Labyrinth - designed for young and old alike, the labyrinth provides a mixture of rituals and visuals, of contemplative words and contemporary ambient music, of symbols and media to help guide the spiritual traveller.
Accepting the Embrace of God: The Ancient Art of Lectio Divina - information, examples and thoughts on the prayer technique known as lectio divina, a slow, contemplative praying of the Scriptures which enables the Bible, the Word of God, to become a means of union with God.
National Pastors Convention 2004: San Diego Schedule
* Tuesdayâ€”March 9 updated: August 7 2003
* Wednesdayâ€”March 10 updated: February 27 2004
* Thursdayâ€”March 11 updated: March 3 2004
* Fridayâ€”March 12 updated: March 3 2004
* Saturdayâ€”March 13 updated: February 24 2004
Thursday, March 11
7:00 am - 10:30 pm Labyrinth Open (closed during General Sessions)
8:00 am - 6:00 pm Headquarters Open
8:30 am - 9:15 am Morning Bible Study with Earl Palmer
8:30 am - 9:15 am Book Club with Dan Kimballâ€”The Emerging Church
8:30 am - 9:15 am Book Club with Denny and Leesa Bellesiâ€”The
8:30 am - 9:15 am Contemplative Morning Prayer Exercises
8:30 am - 9:15 am Sustainable Life Forum: Stretching and Yoga
8:30 am - 9:30 am Ministry Resource Center Open
9:30 am - 11:30 am General Session 3
* Speaker: Rick Warren
* Worship Leader: Rick Muchow
* Musical Guest: Joy Williams
* Comedy: Jeff Allen
* Special Guest: Children of the World
* Special Guest: Bob Stromberg
* Special Guest: Ken Medema
11:30 am - 4:00 pm Ministry Resource Center Open
1:30 pm - 3:30 pm Elective Seminars Series #2
1. Hendricks, Howard - The Keys to Transformative Coaching
2. Johnston, Ray - Preaching for Life Change
3. Kimball, Dan - Creating Multisensory Worship Services and Experiences [e]
4. Mallory, Sue - Challenges of Building and Leading an Equipping Team
5. McLaren, Brian - Onramp to the Postmodern Discussion: Understanding the Transition [e]
6. Palmer, Earl - C.S. Lewis: A Mentor to Pastors
7. Pope, Randy - Making and Training Disciples
8. Roxburgh, Alan - Prophetic Imagination: Congregations Shaping the Future [e]
9. Schlaepfer, Rene - Changing an Established Church
10. Smith, Scotty - The Worship of Worship or the Worship of God: Doxological Reflection in an Age of Consumerism
11. Thomas, Gary - Sacred Marriage: What if God Designed Marriage to Make Us More Holy than Happy?
12. Webber, Robert - Ancient-Future Evangelism [e]
13. Willimon, Will - Why Reaching Out to the World Is Not All It's Cracked Up to Be: Evangelism in a Postmodern World
4:00 pm - 5:45 pm General Session 4
* Host: Will Willimon
* Speaker: Kathleen Norris
* Music: Jeff Johnson
* Comedy: Jeff Allen
* Special Guest: Ken Medema
5:45 pm Free Time Option
5:30 pm - 6:00 pm Ministry Resource Center Open
7:45 pm - 9:30 pm Beyond the Gates of Splendor Film Preview
9:30 pm - 10:30pm Late Night Contemplative Prayer Service
9:30 pm - 10:30pm Comedy Night (with Jeff Allen, Bob Stromberg
and Darren Streblow)
9:30 pm - 10:30 pm Late Night Options
* Peter Nevland Performance
* Sustainable Life Forum: Money and Budget - Mark Scandrette
* Sustainable Life Forum: Ecology - Jeanne Stevens Art Studio
* emergent Pub with Live Music
9:00 pm - 11:00 pm pm Worship Concertâ€”Something Like Silas
Labyrinth - designed for young and old alike, the labyrinth provides a mixture of rituals and visuals, of contemplative words and contemporary ambient music, of symbols and media to help guide the spiritual traveller.
(Link from youth specialties)
BEWARE NOT A CHRISTIAN SITE
( pictures from convention) BEWARE
Doug Fields a respected youth ministry leader for over two decades, has authored or coauthored more than 30 books, including Purpose-Driven Youth Ministry, Your First Two Years of Youth Ministry, and Videos That Teach. With an M.Div. from Fuller Theological Seminary, Doug is the youth pastor at Saddleback Church, president of SimplyYouthMinistry.com,
and a frequent presenter at Youth Specialties events.
The labyrinth offers ancient meditation for today's hurried souls.
Dan Kimball (RICK co-authored book with this guy)
Coming in from the brilliant San Diego sunshine, my wife and I entered a darkened hall lit only by candles and a dimmed chandelier. The room was silent. As our eyes adjusted, we saw several people kneeled in prayer. The setting, spirit, and solemn stillness of the hall told us that we had found something meditative there, something spiritual.
Today's evangelicals are accustomed to well-choreographed worship services with every minute carefully filled with music, video, and preaching. Postmodern generations are hungering for something moreâ€”an unhurried, mystery-filled, meditative experience that doesn't have to fit into a preplanned time schedule.
The prayer labyrinth offers a feast to fill that hunger.
Meeting God in the middle
The labyrinth is a maze-like path similar to those designed into the floors of European cathedrals during the Middle Ages. Christians of that time would walk the labyrinth to aid their contemplative prayer and reflection. The labyrinths fell into disuse, and most were eventually forgotten or destroyed.
At the National Pastors Conference in San Diego, however, we found the labyrinth was back and given an update. The path was formed by black lines on a 35-foot square piece of canvas laid on the floor. We each were given a CD player with headphones to guide our journey through the 11 stations on the path. As we began the inward journeyâ€”toward the center of the canvasâ€”a gentle female voice with a British accent read a portion of John 1. She told us not to rush through the labyrinth, but to slow down, breathe deeply, and fully focus on God.
At the first stop, we looked at a television screen covered with complex, moving electronic wave forms. We were instructed to pray about and eliminate the noise within that interferes with God's voice. At another station we dropped small stones into water, each stone representing a worry we were giving over to God. Later we drew on paper symbols of our hurts, prayed about each of them, and put them in a trash can.
After thirty minutes we found ourselves at the labyrinth's center, where, seated on cushions, we were offered the elements of Communion. The narrator read more Scripture and reminded us how near Jesus Christ is to us. There was a Bible if we desired to linger, reading and praying.
The journey outward focused on how we can be used by God in other people's lives. At one station we made impressions of our hands and feet in a box of sand, reminding us that we leave impressions on the people we touch.
My wife and I spent an hour in the labyrinth and found ourselves calmed and refreshed, our perspective uniquely restored.
We made our own prayer path
After the convention we knew we couldn't keep this experience to ourselves. A few months later we featured a labyrinth as part of Graceland's annual art event at Santa Cruz Bible Church.
Graceland artists recreated the labyrinth with a kit we purchased (The Prayer Path, Group Publishing), transforming one of the church's multipurpose rooms into a medieval prayer sanctuary. The team hung art on the walls, draped fabric, and lit candles all around the room to create a visual sense of sacred space. Over two nights we saw more than 100 people go through the labyrinth. It was a joy to see so many people on their knees communing with God through the experiential prayer elements.
Meditative prayer like that we experienced in the labyrinth resonates with hearts of emerging generations. If we had the room, we would set up a permanent labyrinth to promote deeper prayer. Until then, however, Graceland will continue to incorporate experiential prayer and encourage our people to stop, quiet themselves, and pray.
Dan Kimball pastors Graceland, the ministry and worship services for the emerging culture at Santa Cruz Bible Church in Santa Cruz, California.
Copyright Â© 2001 by the author or Christianity Today, Inc./Leadership journal..
Fall 2001, Vol. 23, No. 4, Page 38
Emerging Church, The
by Dan Kimball, Rick Warren, Brian D. McLaren
The Emerging Church
Dan Kimball (Zondervan, 2003)
Rick Warren says, This book is a wonderful detailed example of what a Purpose-Driven church can look like in a postmodern world. My friend, Dan Kimball, writes passionately from his heart, with a deep desire to reach emerging generations and culture. While my book the Purpose-Driven Church, explained what the church is called to do, Dan's book explains how to do it with the cultural-creatives who think and feel in postmodern terms. You need to pay attention to him because times are changing.( http://www.pastors.com/RWMT/?ID=109)
>>By wwhunnybee (Tuesday, 1 Jun 2004 04:01)
I am disgusted that YOGA and Christian Church appear on the same list. If this kind of junk doesnt convince you that this guy (Rick Warren) is a false teacher I don't know what else you need to see. We are in very deceptive times people. We must really be on our guard spiritually. Keep your nose in your word, your knees on the floor and your whole heart toward the Lord Jesus. Remember the word says "...if it were possible to decieve the very elect..." We are soooooooo in the last days. A very few seconds to midnight...Love to you all my fellow believers.
>>By beanieweenie (Tuesday, 8 Jun 2004 19:57)
Recent lettet sent to:
Rick Warren, Kay Warren, Lee Strobel, Rich Muchow,
Doug Fields, Ken Medema, Philip Yancey, Ruth Graham, Phil Keaggy, Henry Cloud, John Townsend
I am writing this letter to (admonish) correct and caution you in regards to your association with Yoga and Labyrinth. As shepherds of the flock of God I am puzzled why you would align yourselves with such practices. I fear that many who follow your lead will not discern that these practices are not glorifying to God, but actually sin. We are not to Christianize other religious practices, we are to be set apart. These practices relate to the worship of false gods. I am sure you are familiar with the king's who did not walk upright, in that they did not destroy the high places which they were commanded by God to destroy.
You have all participated in some way with the National Pastors Convention, Youth Specialties events and The Emergent Church. These groups fully embrace Yoga and Labyrinth as a biblical means to worship, pray and experience God. Rick has even endorsed books by these people. This is not a fad or a new way to experience God, practicing these things is sin.
I pray that you judge what I am saying by the word of God.
Peace to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen (Eph 6:23-24)
12:1 "These are the statutes and judgments which you shall be careful to observe in the land which the LORD God of your fathers is giving you to possess, all the days that you live on the earth. 2 You shall utterly destroy all the places where the nations which you shall dispossess served their gods, on the high mountains and on the hills and under every green tree. 3 And you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and burn their wooden images with fire; you shall cut down the carved images of their gods and destroy their names from that place.
4 You shall not worship the LORD your God with such things.
>>By wwhunnybee (Sunday, 12 Sep 2004 00:09)
To the best of my ability letters were sent by email and regular mail to everyone that I could find an address too. Also sent to Youth Specialties, Leadership and Zondervan ChurchSource. I did not expect a response and only did this because I truely believe that some speak and perform at these events and really have no idea what takes place there. I received many replies, some shocked and thankful for the info. Asking for proof (which was sent). It is up to God to give people understanding in their hearts. So I did my job and will continue. Some do not see yoga, and these practices as sin. His sheep hear His voice. Many wanted to know who I was and why they should listen to me . Some were in total disagreement. So if the word of God doesn't convict them and they think because the text does not specifically address these practices that it is alright to practice them , then so be it. Next I will be contacting the one's speaking at the National Pastors Convention..... The truth is people just don't care. But I was blessed by those who did and were will to check into it on their own. Below are some quotes from the responses.
"Thankyou for your note, and for taking the time to
write to us. We as a band do not support either of
the items you mentioned...however we do intend to
spread the Love of Christ to the WHOLE world, which
may include places some may disagree with. Thanks
again for your concern."
"Thanks for your concern.
I personally have no use for a Labyrinth, maze or any of that other silly
mystical nonsense that has somehow wormed its way into some areas of
Christianity and often lampoon their sudden appearance on the scene"
Having been associated with the folks at Youth Specialties for years I can
assure you that there are many rolled eyes at the idea of including that in
the mix at their events. But I know some, who are real genuine believers,
who think the labyrinth experience has been a wonderful way for them to
connect with the Lord. Considering all the good stuff and right on people at the National Youthworkers Convention, I tend to see bailing out of their event as throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I'll stick around for the baby and suggest we toss out the bathwater. But I do think, in many areas of American Christianity, there is lots of bathwater we have to deal with. I think on reflection, you might agree that it is better to have someone on the inside pooh-poohing those nutty ideas than merely jumping ship."
"wow. well you certainly are agressive. however, you're also a bit over-reaching i'd say. We are not shephereds of flocks. we play in a band. we write some songs. and we play them for people who have an interest in our music."
" I would appreciate your direct references in their material that lead you to the conclusion that ____ or the above mentioned ministries are directly involved in said spiritual deception. It is not our intent to affiliate our artist with such blatant misdirection of scripture and teaching, so I again ask you to prove positive your claims so that we can effectively look at the situation.Thank you for your concern and I look forward to hearing from you directly. Thank you also, for following scriptural mandates in the book of Matthew to expose possible error directly to your Brothers and Sisters. You are to be commended for faithfulness to the scripture."
"Thank you for your email. As a follower of Christ, I'm obviously interested in walking the right path and avoiding sin.
Can you please help me with thse questions?
1. Who are you?
2. Are you a pastor? (you mentioned shepherds of the flock)
3. Re: "National Pastors Convention, Youth Specialties events and The
Emergent Church. These groups fully embrace Yoga and Labyrinth as a biblical means to worship, pray and experience God."
Please furnish proof and example."
"I have read your email and reflected on it and want you to know that I totally disagree with your statements. I worship God and God alone and have tried to orient my entire life around authentic discipleship of Jesus Christ."
"Thank you for your correction and caution. I will be sharing this with my pastor and see if corrective steps need to be taken. "
"I appreciate you bringing this to my attention. I will see if I can get
more feedback on this."
"Thanks for bringing that to my attention."
"thank you for admonition.
I found your "caution and correction" interesting in light of the
1. Who are you? On what basis should I listen to you? (I'm open to
counsel, advice, etc. but find letters like this lacking both,
considering your name rings no bell with me)
2. Where in the verses you mentioned are EITHER "yoga" or "labyrinth"
(or even the "idea" of these practices) mentioned? As a biblical
scholar, I caution YOU in making more of a passage than it says. That's
known as "eisegesis" or "reading into scripture" your own biases. It's
not only fodder for faulty theology but if left unchecked it's ripe for
heresy on your part.
3. Have you ever been to Youth Specialties NYWC (or any other EC
conference)? If you had, and it's pretty obvious that you probably have
not, you would know that your claim is simply silly.
Thank you for your fair warning. I take quite seriously my
responsibility to rightly divide God's Word (though I doubt that would
fully satisfy your own "divisions") and leading God's Church in
integrity, love, grace, peace and hope. If you are truly worried about
me, let me simply invite you to pray for me and ask God to keep me, hold
me, prove me and use me for His Glory."
"We were unaware of this, it is virtually impossible to screen everyone we
are invited to play a concert for. Please give us the reference where you
received this information."
>>By wwhunnybee (Saturday, 25 Sep 2004 02:28)
We could all argue for years about who is right and who is wrong, and possibly even prove it! But I think the main thing is, If Rick Warren reaches one person and brings them to God, gets them to be a believer, God will take it from there and His purpose has been served. We are all sinners, we have all sinned, we are not perfect, neither is Rick Warren...this is why Jesus died on the cross for us all. But Rick Warren has brought people to believe God will make sure they understand..gossiping about someone who is trying to serve the Lord's purpose is a sin, so don't call one of those "the pot is calling the kettle black" christians..look in your heart and see the good and the difference people can make. We all make errors..thats why we are human and not God...God loves us anyway and excepts us...sins, errors and all! God Bless Rick Warren and every other Christian serving God's Purpose...after all it isn't about you me or him! It is about God!
Jesus Loves You Too...right or wrong!
>>By JesusLovesYouToo (Sunday, 7 Nov 2004 03:02)
Sorry, JesusLovesYouToo, but your argument does not hold water when logic is applied.
Yes, God can use anything we do... but that does NOT justify us doing anything we want.
If Warren is teaching a false Gospel (which it is clear he is), then God may save that one person IN SPITE OF Warrenism, not BECAUSE OF IT. So it doesn't make Warren's teaching right or acceptable.
If someone murders a child and out of that God saves the child's parents, does that make what the murderer did right and okay? Of course not.
PRAGMATISM, the old lie that the "Ends justifies the means" is the current trend in churches and is from the pit of hell. It's how millions of unthinking "Christians" wasted money watching the catholic film "The Passion". Compromise God's pure truth is sin.
>>By HawkeyeLonewolf2 (Tuesday, 16 Nov 2004 01:44)
The discussion board is currently closed.