Oswald Spengler

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Not right about everything he mentioned, by any means, but intriguing none the less. This is especially so in light of some of his important predictions. Two in particular stand out. Writing in the early 1920's, at a time when many otherwise intelligent people were predicting that Lenin's newly created Soviet regime was the coming thing for the whole world, Spengler calmly predicted that Communism in Russia simply would not last. Spot on.
He also predicted that the Western, white countries, would be subjected to endless immigration from the vastly larger populations of what are now called the Third World. This would continue until, apparently, the present populations of the Western countries are in the same position as the Palestinians: reduced to a minority in their own part of the world by non-stop immigration from a larger, vastly larger,population. Unless an important change takes place in the near future,then, spot on again. Yes, Spengler is worth reading.

>>By J. DODDS   (Tuesday, 11 Mar 2003 19:18)



Not right about everything he mentioned, by any means, but intriguing none the less. This is especially so in light of some of his important predictions. Two in particular stand out. Writing in the early 1920's, at a time when many otherwise intelligent people were predicting that Lenin's newly created Soviet regime was the coming thing for the whole world, Spengler calmly predicted that Communism in Russia simply would not last. Spot on.
He also predicted that the Western, white countries, would be subjected to endless immigration from the vastly larger populations of what are now called the Third World. This would continue until, apparently, the present populations of the Western countries are in the same position as the Palestinians: reduced to a minority in their own part of the world by non-stop immigration from a larger, vastly larger,population. Unless an important change takes place in the near future,then, spot on again. Yes, Spengler is worth reading.

>>By J. DODDS   (Tuesday, 11 Mar 2003 19:24)



I think that Spengler had a piece of something, an insight that he probably would have developed even further had he lived longer, when he envisioned cultures as organisms on a higher plane than individual persons. Matter has been organizing itself into increasingly complex forms for billions of years. After life evolved, organisms became increasingly complex AND their levels of consciousness expanded from rudimentary light/dark, hot/cold recognition to sense-of-danger, to self-contemplation, to family and to racial-national affinities. Who knows how much farther up the road can lead? Spengler must have considered that question, which Nietzsche also wrote about. He criticized Hitler as being overly idealist, not pragmatic enough, as well as imprudent, in his conduct of World War 2, and there's some truth to that, even though Hitler correctly identified the "predator" (the Jews) to which Western Civilization was becoming prey.

>>By Jerry Abbott   (Saturday, 22 Mar 2003 17:37)



In the final sentence of Mr Abbot's opinion on Spengler, above, he informs us that Spengler criticised Hitler's "conduct of World War 2". This is remarkable. Since Spengler died in 1936, how was he in a position to do this? I think we should be told.

>>By J. Dodds   (Tuesday, 1 Apr 2003 20:08)



I don't agree with everything but find many correspondences everyday between Spengler's work & modern culture, particularly between the Roman Empire & current American situation, as well as the development of what he calls "The World-City", where Faustian man becomes completely divorced from Organic, natural man.

>>By James C.   (Tuesday, 29 Apr 2003 18:32)



Hi. I've no idea if anyone reads this somewhat obscure forum but here goes anyway.

Personally I believe Spengler's message is terribly important. He does need to be rescued from the far right. Spengler was not antisemitic if his own work is any guide:

"But in speaking of race, it is not intended in the sense in which it is the fashion among anti-Semites in Europe and America to use it today: Darwinistically, materially. Race purity is a grotesque word in view of the fact that for centuries all stocks and species have been mixed, and that warlike - that is, healthy - generations with a future before them have from time immemorial always welcomed a stranger into the family if he had "race," to whatever race it was he belonged. Those who talk too much about race no longer have it in them. What is needed is not a pure race, but a strong one, which has a nation within it."

-from "The Hour of Decision", 1933. This was written and published after Hitler had come to power, and was a direct criticism of the Nazi ideology. Previously "The Decline of the West" had given a, to my mind, sympathetic treatment of the Jewish predicament.

Well. Spengler's thought still needs to be disentangled from the catchpenny nationalism of his time. His understanding of the Anglo-American world is lacking, though he seems drawn to comment on figures like Rhodes. His understandable hopes for Germany have scarcely been realised. "Hour" is still a racist tract with its talk of the "White" and "Coloured" world-revolutions. Yet he is only speaking of what Toynbee later labelled the internal and external proletariats -- useful concepts detachable from racist ideas, I'd suggest.

Regarding Cosmopolis (globalisation as we call it), Caesarism and Empire, Spengler's insights provide a remarkable compass in this year of 2003.

Here is my own time scheme which I outlined in a letter which was published in the Spectator magazine in 1996. It is not too different from the excellent "Spengler's Future", by John Reilly, a most engaging writer and blogger with whom I have corresponded.

1918 Wilson's 14 points = 196BC Flamininus declares the "freedom of Greece"

2nd world war 1939-45 =3rd Macedonian war 171-168BC

Vietnam war 1965-75 = 3rd Punic war 149-146BC

2001 9/11 = Massacre of the Romans at Cirta 113BC

2003-? Middle East war = Jugurthine war 112-106BC

Still to come... the Celtic invasion (maybe an attack on Western Europe?)... Marius and Sulla (Democrats v. neocons?)... the Social War (Europe rebels?)... Mithridates (the Athenians open their gates to Rome's deadliest enemy 88BC; who are today's Athenians?); Pompey, Caesar, you know the rest!

>>By Patrick Miles   (Sunday, 11 May 2003 02:41)



J Dodds caught me in some carelessness. I should not have described Spengler as a critic of Hitler's military leadership, but rather of Hitler's leadership of the Nazi movement. My apologies.

>>By JerryAbbott   (Saturday, 16 Aug 2003 07:41)



Maybe you could explain where Spengler came up with the Jews as "predator" then Jerry? From your previous message:

'He criticized Hitler as being overly idealist, not pragmatic enough, as well as imprudent, in his conduct of World War 2, and there's some truth to that, even though Hitler correctly identified the "predator" (the Jews) to which Western Civilization was becoming prey.'

I'll answer that myself: Spengler never wrote anything of the sort. He was quite sympathetic to the Jews and particularly latterday Jewish mystics such as Erich Weiniger. He saw the Jews as members of a culture, the so called "Magian", that was farther on in its life cycle than the Western one (or the Russian-Slavic); people who were incomprehensibly "cosmopolitan" compared to the mediaeval peasantry, and in this way tried to explain the terrible history of pogroms and persecution. He also drew comparisons of the "ghetto" culture and (in Spenglerian terms) its "physiognomy" with the more recent Indian ghettos in East Africa, and Chinese ones in California. It may not explain everything but crude Elders-of-Zion style anti-Semitism it is not

Pat.

>>By Patrick Miles   (Saturday, 30 Aug 2003 21:45)



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