Frank Herbert


Dune is really a good one. I have read all of them. The first is imho the best by far but the rest is very good as well.

>>By dougy   (Saturday, 25 Jan 2003 12:57)

the first "Dune" is the only acceptable one. alll other are selfplagiatoric and rather near to fascism

>>By eljot   (Saturday, 25 Jan 2003 12:57)

fascism ?

>>By dougy   (Saturday, 25 Jan 2003 12:57)

1 a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism
2 the philosophy, principles, or methods of fascism
3 a fascist movement, esp. the one established by Mussolini in Italy 1922-43

There you go.

>>By Hinkle   (Saturday, 25 Jan 2003 12:57)

did i just read a beat down?

>>By Hypno   (Saturday, 25 Jan 2003 12:57)

Of course it's fascist. That's the idea. If you continue reading, the main support for Frank Herbert's books is that democracy does not function at a certain point. It becomes authoritarian, despite it's outwardly democratic appearences. The purpose, however, of Leto II's "fascist" (really even more so, it is predeterimining) regime is to set mankind on a path to rebellion, Scattering and propogation into an infinite universe. He oppresses the people until his death, generating a huge energy that carries us beyond previous borders, into unknown space, creating new innovations, new society. A society that NEVER AGAIN can be controlled by one being or government, ensuring the continuation of the human species.

>>By Scottywan   (Saturday, 25 Jan 2003 12:57)

Interesting. It's a long time since I read the Dune Saga, but I was interested in a completely different aspect of the book. I was mainly interested in those self-control things. (Was it called prama bindu ? When you sit down and try to relax etc ?). I never digged deep into the political aspects.

>>By dougy   (Saturday, 25 Jan 2003 12:57)

The books are all about politics and messages. I think it can be easily said that the Dune series is the deepest book series in the history of literature. No other author spent as much work creating the universe the the series based on. Herbert created his universe, and then created the books. While the prequels are quite different in writing style, they are still based off of mainly Herbert's notes. I believe that hundreds more books could be written with the background Herbert gave the Duneiverse.

If you're intrested in starting up the Dune saga, I reccomend actually giving one of the prequels (NOT the Butlerian Jihad, due to how different it can be from Dune, preferable House Atreides instead) a shot first. The writing is a little looser, but the universe is there. After one of the prequels, have a go at Dune itself. If you're adventuresome, go for the whole series, but if you can't finish that, go back and reread the prequel you read, beacuse you'll enjoy picking up on references to the original series, plus the other prequels. Some fervent Duneatics (I consider myself one) hate the prequels, but I love the Duniverse, and I will not miss out on the chance to read more about it.

>>By ShrineGuard   (Saturday, 25 Jan 2003 12:57)

In my english class, I've been assigned to write a critical analysis on Dune. I wanted to focus mainly on the semantics and language that he uses throughout the novel but I'm finding much difficulty in finding resources. Any suggestions?

>>By Nymph-chan   (Saturday, 25 Jan 2003 12:57)

Nymph-Chan you are extremely lucky to have the opportunity to do a critical-analysis on Dune. You could focus on the political aspects of the book and make comparisons to fascism, democracy and all the different forms which Herbert discusses. My English teacher hasn't read Dune and I think he ought to be ashamed. I don't think I'll ever read another science fiction book after reading the first three Dune books.

>>By Micah   (Saturday, 25 Jan 2003 12:57)

Seen the movie and read the "Emperor of Dune"- part of the series, interesting stories creating interesting thought patterns. Sometimes what seems to be a quite alien world may be a very good metaphore for our "real" worlD.

Which book should I read next, which one is the most mind-
bending, shall I go for the first book or what, any hints, anyone.

(By all means, don`t answer if don`t feel like it)


>>By 1(0)+1(1) = 1(2)   (Saturday, 25 Jan 2003 12:57)

I think you should read them all, in the order they were written. It's the only way to experience all aspects of it, since they are a progression of thoughts and history in the Dune universe. The most mind-bending would be the last three, but you'll lose a lot of that very mind-bending effect if you don't know the previous story. That said, God Emperor may be my favourite in the series...

>>By Psyche Delic   (Saturday, 25 Jan 2003 12:57)

God Emperor feels like the apex of the series. I feel like Hebert makes the reader close to everything we imagine God can be. Leto II is the sum total of human experience mixed with alien experience and his goal is to make humans free of his yoke, of all yokes. I think that is why Herbert places so much emphasis on discipline of the body and mind. To be free of all law you must be extremely disciplined. Think about not stealing in situations where it would be so easy to.

>>By Greg   (Saturday, 25 Jan 2003 12:57)

I think there is no fascism. There is a sacriface and on this sacriface Leto is the offering.
He had to die for the humans. He is the Jesus Cristus of the Dune.

>>By Matthew   (Monday, 3 Mar 2003 09:03)

Hey… don't you think Frank Herbert is not just creating the political aspects? I guess, once you plummet deep in the cultural aspects of Dune, you'll surely love it. See, how those people differ from us in their philosophy.

Anyway, the philosophy in Dune doesn't differ with us. I wonder why they're different, or considered from outer world since they also act as humans. I guess, the real Messiah in literature world would be the one that would create much far away creatures. Maybe something about, people were not brought out by sex. Got it? Paul is from sex.

>>By Renz   (Thursday, 13 Mar 2003 05:59)

It seems that it is a discussion point here, but does anyone know if an in depth political analysis of Dune exists in print or online? I just read the novel for the first time and was amazed! Has Herbert put out anything himself on the subject?

>>By vera   (Thursday, 13 Mar 2003 11:03)

Herbert wrote a lot of other good stuff that tends to get overlooked because the whole Dune series was so amazing... one of my favourites is Destination:Void. It's nowhere near as deep or complex as Dune (not very many books are) but it's got some really cool ideas in it about the nature of consciousness. Not an easy read by any means; it's the kind of book where you've got to mull over every other paragraph for a while before continuing. Great, thought-provoking sci-fi.

>>By momo   (Monday, 17 Mar 2003 09:57)

One part of the Dune novels that has fascinated me for some time is the character of Duncan Idaho, especially his role in relation to the God Emperor. Why does Leto II keep on bringing copies of Duncan back to life to bedevil both of them.

I have a theory that it may be an attempt by Leto to retain his sanity. In order to be sane I think we need some fixed points -- family, friends,loved ones. But if one lives thousands of years and no one else does than there are no fixed points. Certainly there are memories and Leto has those in superabundance -- both those of his own and of anscestors. But memories in themselves may not be sufficient.

I think Leto wants copies of Duncan around to give him a fixed point and to help him retain his sanity as he drives events with a singularity of purpose that is painful to even imagine.

Then again what if Leto's attempts to use Duncan to retain his sanity failed. This might putt he events that followed Leto's demise into a whole new perpsective.

>>By DaveG   (Friday, 4 Apr 2003 06:24)

I'm interested in the social evolution of mankind as portrayed in God Emperor. When you look at society from an ecological perspective, the pressure that Leto II placed on the Empire created the physical and social evolution of the race. I need to read the series again from this perspective to see if this aspect carries through all six books (the Golden Path, etc.). Is Leto's plan Darwinism? What was in his head? Is it a political theory that holds true in our world? I feel there was much more to it than the scattering. Where was Herbert taking mankind's evolution?

>>By Kitz   (Thursday, 24 Apr 2003 09:16)

As far as the Duncan character (or is it characters hmmm) I think there are a couple of reasons that he is kept around. First and formost is the fixed point theory. I agree but maybe not to the point where he would have gone insane. I think Leto II (shouldn't it be III) was a bit on the insane side. At least to the view of all of those around him. I mean come on, he did combine with a worm. But yes I think it did help to keep him rooted. Also, the Duncans were there I think in order to keep a bit of the old around. Not for the rooting of him but for others. I mean if you look at it, most may have hated him and there were rebellions, but nothing was ever truly orginized, but with Duncan as a true rebal at heart and a leader, there was someone for those that he wanted to rebel to look up to. Also, he says that he kept them around for the breeding program.

>>By Clint   (Friday, 25 Apr 2003 02:00)

By the way, does anyone know where I can get a list of the rest of the books that Herbert wrote. I am trying to find them so that I can see how many I have left. I would like to be able to say that I read all the books of at least one great author.

>>By Clint   (Friday, 25 Apr 2003 02:01)

I watched all the movies even The Children of Dune. I love them. Which book should I start with, and are the movies like the books?

>>By wallace   (Wednesday, 11 Jun 2003 03:16)

Ahem - herbert's disastrous
foray into scientology, anyone?
that's the real motivation behind
the grindingly dogmatic "god emperor"
low point in the series... makes up for
it with the tenderly personal "chapterhouse"
... just my $.02

>>By Sir Palomides   (Thursday, 3 Jul 2003 07:32)

Hey Sir Palomides,
Can you elucidate please? Not all of us are privy to "herbert's disastrous foray into scientology"


>>By lovepoet   (Tuesday, 11 May 2004 19:44)

Fortune pass everywhere!

Has anyone read the last part of the dune saga. There is a story that someone other than (BH and KJA) wrote.

Its the supposed to be the last part, anyone know what I am babbling about?

>>By Gilbertus   (Saturday, 11 Sep 2004 20:28)

Nymph-chan were asking for resources concerning the language and semiotics of Dune.. is an excellent place to start.. just search for Dune or Frank Herbert and you'll have a bunch of information at your fingertips.

>>By Rezon Mero   (Wednesday, 27 Apr 2005 17:37)

Has anyone (here) read The Dosadi Experiment, The White Plague, or The Godmakers? Dune is surely a landmark but I hate to see these get so overshadowed. As an aside, has anyone read Brian Herbert's book (Frank's son) The Race For God?

>>By Breeze   (Tuesday, 25 Jul 2006 12:00)

Though Herbert's Dune masterworks are wildly successful bestsellers, I'm actually more interested in his non-Dune works, most notably The Green Brain, Whipping Star, and The Dosadi Experiment. Has anyone else read any of these? If so, any comments?

>>By Chipchik   (Monday, 15 Jan 2007 05:53)

All the books in the Dune series fulfill a certain task from the point of view social and spiritual aspects of life. If you are not familiar with the history and the historical comparisons its difficult to understand the true content of the books. It is entirely alien to any notion that may be synonimous with fascism but underlines the threat the West in other words IX poses in its endeavour to completely rely on machines and so called technology to rule the universe and totally dismissing the spiritual world.

>>By Hitite   (Tuesday, 11 Dec 2007 18:33)

I'm coming in a bit late here, but I'd like to add my two cents at any rate. The complexities of the Dune universe have fascinated me since I first read the original novel, Dune...I'm drawn to the careful and meticulous exploration of political drives, and the ways in which a whole society is manipulated, AND how that society ultimately creates its less noble manipulators. I think that the Dune novels, the original ones, at least, deal with the fact that every society creates the seeds of its own enslavement simply by creating situations in which the flawed seek and gain power, and the only way out of that vicious cycle is through something that many would view as fascism...I can't say that I found Leto II to be a particularly likable character, but what he ultimately did by the end of God Emperor of Dune is paradoxically selfless, especially since as "the Tyrant" he actually expressed a kind of "tough love" for Humanity that led to the destruction of the dogmatic systems that enslaved humanity. In my understanding of the original Dune novels, Humanity's inclination to self enslavement is what is called into question. For me, that seems to be the thrust of the novels, the original ones at least, and I'm endlessly fascinated by the way this all plays out, first with the thinking machines, that lead to "current" Dune-universe society, and within that society, you see the Spacing Guild exibiting its own growth stunting behaviors. Though humanity is free of the thinking machines, you get super misogynists like the Tleilaxu, Ixian near-technocrats, corrupt Padishah Emperors, eventually overthrown by Muad Dib, but even his legacy led to simialar padishah-style enslavements, and only through Leto II, do you get someone willing to do the hard thing and set humanity free, even as he sacrifices his own humanity. Eh...that's my reading of the series, at least, and for me, that's what's so infinitely interesteing about the Dune novels. I'm not too crazy about the prequels written by Herbert's son, Kevin J. Anderson, but I certainly cannot say that they're bad. I think they're just in a different style, which--in my opinion--doesn't exactly fit with the whole voice that Frank Herbert gave TO the Dune universe. But eh...that's a matter of style and taste with me.

>>By Chipchik   (Wednesday, 16 Jul 2008 08:21)

The discussion board is currently closed.