Andy Mcnab
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>>By Nomad (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 13:43)
damn, just checked watch - where has the morning gone, make that 1400.
>>By Nomad (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 13:44)
"i.e., where McNab has supposedly stolen other troopers stories and which books he has placed said stories in to...After all, this is supposedly a forum for discussing AM books..."
That would be wonderful. I think it unlikely though.
>>By Bethan (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 14:47)
Uh-oh, Nomad...
I've missed your 1400 cutoff but need a bit of clarification before even attempting anything further. Are you talking AM himself or AM via NS as having a connection with RT's "The Big Breach"?
>>By am-i-binned (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 15:02)
Well, howdy, Reg! (I'll leave off the doody part because where I'm from that's the stuff that belongs in cling-film ;-)
Interesting factoid about slugs... thanks for sharing. Did you know that if I lack chocolate, I turn... anyway, less about my private life.....
Even if you aren't one for biology, you made a valiant attempt at answering my question. Thanks.
Nomad! Thanks for the filter info, too!. Blue for bloodwork, eh? Easy to remember that one. As for the sneaking up on animals at night with a red-covered torch/flashlight, perhaps this is because animals (like us humans) rely on rods at night, and rods are fairly insensitive to the longer light wavelengths (red & orange). So a red flashlight doesn't startle them or destroy their night vision the way a white light would. (I'm just assuming animals use their rods at night... certainly humans do! ;-)
Well, it's the first gorgeous day we've had in a long time. I'm goin' out to play.
Seeya!
>>By Majorette (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 15:25)
AIB - am talking a peak under the blankets into the anti-maccasser (as opposed to Andy mcnabber) world of how stains are prevented from appearing on the national fabric. Not Nick Stone.
>>By Nomad (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 15:50)
Dear Nomad,
My boy I think you are in need of some counselling !
Dear devonwren, I could mention the sausage (bangers), you saucy thing, but would be open to horrendous inuendo-jibes from all onboard !
Ortilieb, sorry (A.I.) it's short (definitely not an inuendo....if you know what I mean......nudge, nudge, wink, wink !) for Accuracy International - a standard British Army sniper rifle.
>>By Reginald (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 17:35)
Sheesh, Reginald...
Who wound you up? No, wait! Maybe it's better if you don't answer that! hahaha!
Hmmm, Nomad...
I give up (in part cuz I can't translate "anti-maccasser"). Some obvious connections seem too obvious, like the after-dinner presentation at Stirling Lines. And to me, the "stains" angle does seem Stone-ish, so I must be off there, too.
Uhm... Bethan?
Which part is unlikely? Cuz I'm willing if you are... :o)
A follow-up, Devonwren...
<< Nowadays soldiers tend to rely on hi-tech commnication, but in the long run it's not the same as a paper letter you can carry around in your pocket >>
Coincidentally, I had a conversation just last night with a retired Marine about how he felt envied advantages of the high-tech comms available now. He believes his life would have been entirely different if internet real-time had been available with his first, true love (she serving in Germany while he did two tours of Vietnam). Sadly, they were young and the strain of military snail mail took too heavy a toll.
>>By am-i-binned (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 18:04)
Well, Nomad. I give up too - just what kind of "stains" are we talking about? :0)
Only point in common between RT and AM I can think of is that neither man is much liked by former colleagues.
>>By bladwags (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 18:19)
AIB - who mentioned after-dinner presentation at Stirling Lines?Did I miss that?
Your on a hot trail there alright!
Guess it was too obvious after all.
Damn you are good AIB.
Anti-Maccasers - to prevent stains on furniture from hair oil. believe it was an old fashioned grooming application called Macasser oil?
Bit tenuous I grant thee.
>>By Nomad (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 18:23)
http://www.setec.org/~izaac/bbpdf.pdf page 50 - 52
A stocky, dark-haired soldier was waiting, standing by an overhead projector. As we settled into our seats he stared blankly at the wall behind us, waited until there was silence. Quietly he introduced himself and for the next hour told ....
He spoke with no trace of boastfulness, emotion or humour, as if he was talking about a trip to buy a bit of wood from B&Q. When he finished, he thanked us for our attention and left. We trooped back to the bar in silence. It was some minutes before Spencer spoke up. It would make a cracking book, that would. For once, Spencer was right. When Andy McNab published his story a year later it became a worldwide best seller.
Sorry - is that a disappointing answer?
I'm off for a pint of Pimms and babycham, catch you all Monday.
>>By Nomad (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 18:28)
Hahaha, Nomad...
Maybe you're right about your keyboard's spelling probs... Antimacassars! (Antimacassar is a cloth, used mainly in the past, for putting over the back of a chair in order to keep it clean or to decorate it. Macassar oil was used by some men in the 19th century for a glossy hairdressing.)... and, yeah, a bit tenuous, but the now the word "slick" comes to mind... LOL!
But I'm still confused. Are you saying you didn't know about the presentation or just that the presentation is in addition to the obvious SAS background, mutual mates, etc.?
>>By am-i-binned (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 18:47)
Hahaha again, Nomad!
Sorry for the cross-posting lag! That's what I get for answering the phone while drafting a post....
>>By am-i-binned (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 18:53)
That there Marine, AIB: wishful thinking on his part no doubt...Wonder if the ex would agree...See that's the trouble with men, they think a last minute communique will save there bacon...Seriously, if a relationship isn't strong it won't last in civvy street and given the extra pressures attached to military deployments it takes very special women to survive the separation and wait patiently at home...
I stand by what I said on the sanity angle re letters: when you think of the vast numbers of men involved in previous long-term wars, the actual figures for PTSS etc., were much lower per regiment than more recent high-tech conflicts of men per unit/bat affected...
>>By devonwren (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 20:29)
It's just occurred to me, maybe that's where the Brit military scores above the Yank military postal service, cause BFPO stuff shifts damn fast...I've sent letters one day and they've been delivered two days down the line to Middle East states and, Hong Kong...Gee, our RAF boys make for good posties!!!
>>By devonwren (Friday, 20 Feb 2004 20:36)
Hmmm, Devonwren...
<< the actual figures for PTSS etc., were much lower per regiment than more recent high-tech conflicts of men per unit/bat affected... >>
Now you’ve got me wondering: How can that comparison be substantiated? Do any statistics actually exist regarding PTSS cases for veterans of previous wars (excuse US ref's but like the Revolutionary War, Civil War, or World War I) when letters were the only form of communication available? It seems far more likely that the higher figures now are the direct result of heightened awareness and contemporary diagnosis rather than any kind of actual statistical increase in shell-shocked victims or any kind of cathartic or curative therapy achieved by writing long letters home.
As to my friend, he’s actually pretty exceptional, so for him, no, not “wishful thinking” – neatest part is he’s now in close touch with her again, via the internet no less…
>>By am-i-binned (Saturday, 21 Feb 2004 00:32)
am i bin'd
I totally agree with you, Dwren cannot justify those claims, if you check out the following link you will see that 1 in 7 soldiers in WW I suffered PTSS
eg "As early as 1917, it was recognised that war neuroses accounted for one-seventh of all personnel discharged for disabilities from the British Army. Once wounds were excluded, emotional disorders were responsible for one-third of all discharges."
it makes for depressing reading, but worth it, those poor bastards, and the cure for some, execute them at dawn!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/
war/wwone/shellshock_02.shtml
The only difference now, is that it is discussed more, not enough, not in the right areas, but at least it is getting out there.
the only warning i have is to stop all those who are jumping on the bandwagon, thinking they have had some second or third hand experience and can therefore help, I have never known that work, ex-wives, widows, etc are the worst at helping, they have too much invested in it. They want to be recognised in their own right, it doesn't work.
>>By stevemitch (Saturday, 21 Feb 2004 05:29)
SM, you don't have too much invested in anything when your husband is dead beneath the ground or dead in mind!
I don't have time just now to defend my stance on difference between modern warfare (PTSS figures Vs Shell-shock) and WW! backwards to Napoleonic era...Real life gets in the way, sometimes.
Note I said WW2 in forward motion...
A professional/clinical psychologist, ex wife, has the added advantage of insight (compassion/awarenes/direct experience) of PTSS (in my case) than that of non family member. It has been proven that psychologists who are not related can be as effected by anothers distress as that of someone close to them, (i will show evidence of what I mean, later date.)the difference being that a mother/wife/child (non professional) is usually overcome by emotional commitment!!!!!
Re e-mail contact Marine, AIB....Compare his position to that of people who have joined ex "Old Pals" "School Friends" web sites and how this can bring about romsance/ruined marriages etc....
>>By devonwren (Saturday, 21 Feb 2004 10:19)
Just caught up on last few pages...
Yellow filters...bike racers used to use yellow visors when out in rain/poor visibility. Nowadays, of course, they just cancel the races...compensation culture deems it too risky to continue (maybe?).
>Sometimes a few of us [...] parady the AM stuff, (you guys would hate it...
Some of 'us guys' wouldn't, would we Beth? Flork a sample to B.A.B.E.S I say...
Now...where was the bacon and egg...
(need something to sustain me on the journey home...)
>>By bikergirl (Saturday, 21 Feb 2004 10:38)
If anyone has any info on the anti-Vietnam War movement or anything to do with it e.g students, hippys flork me please!!
>>By christina (Saturday, 21 Feb 2004 12:57)
SM, you're pushing the context of my "wondering" about PTSS to the extreme where devonwren is concerned, and I don't appreciate it!
My wondering about heightened awareness is not limited to the things we discuss on this board. It applies to corruption (personal, business, political, etc.), crimes (murder, rape, assault, etc.), famine, conflicts, disease, sexuality, child abuse, etc. Have these incidents actually increased in proportionate numbers or is it that we have more ready access to this information on a global scale? I question if statistics about health are actually accurate because what is now considered a Vitamin C deficiency now was once a cause of death (scurvy). That doesn't lessen the number of scurvy cases, but it does make me wonder about comparable statistics.
In future, if you continue to post, please refrain manipulating my posts to your axe-grinding purposes.
>>By am-i-binned (Saturday, 21 Feb 2004 14:35)
[Before this message, some personal quarrelling has been deleted]
Sacred Cow I am not, SM, and if you'd like to take it further which pub shall we meet in?
The Franco-Prussian War of 1870-1871 was one of the greatest of European Wars. Larger armies were never assembled. The Germans took 797,950 men into France. Of this number, 28,277 were killed, or died of wounds – a loss of 3.1 per cent. In the Crimean war, the allied armies lost 3.2 per cent. in killed, or deaths from wounds. In the war of 1866, the Austrian army lost 2.6 per cent. from the same cause. But, in the American Civil War the Union Armies lost 4.7 per cent. , and the Confederates over 9 per cent. ….there are no figures on record to show that, even in the Napoleonic wars, there was ever a greater percentage of loss in killed...." gratis:
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/
civilwar/misc/riversofblood.aspx
All the above Wars were mobile/battlefield ancounters...The men borne of hard lifestyles, the officers less so, but one only has to compare the logistics of moving a whole military force across water and a thousand miles across land, to that of modern warfare and huge military transport aircraft for speedy deployment.
_________
WWI was effectively a static war = mobility forward/back nothing more than a mile or so and sometimes merely a few hundred yards at a time...It was a dug in war, the men living, eating, and crapping within a mole like environment...
During the periods of sustained and orchestrated offensive in certain sectors, aggressors and defenders alike sustained horrific casualties. An early example is Loos in 1915, when many of the 'Old Contemptibles' became casualties (of which my grandfather was one and survived). Later offensive campaigns produced total casualties for both sides of 700,000 at Verdun, 1916; 1.2 million at the 1st Battle of the Somme, 1916; 650,000 at Passchendaele, 1917, and over a million during the 1918 Ludendorff offensive. Inevitably, therefore, it is reasonable to expect that the periods of 'All quiet on (at least parts of) the Western Front' were associated with some mutual form of tolerance (L&LL) between the combatants, and a reduction in provocative action by both sides
The US entered WW1 in 1917 the war ended in 1918, the chances are they had higher cases of shell-shock victims who returned home due to short time length of exposure to bombardments.
Of the UK shell-shock victims, because of the longitude of active service in the trenches they either mentally adjusted to the horrors of "daily bombardment" or they went off their trolleys and were often as not shot or went "over the top" of of the trench line of their own accord (suicide)...You have to remember the European allied troops in WWI had suffered almost four years of almost continual bombardments. The Americans only suffered a year of bombardments, in some cases merely a few months, hence less time to adjust to the appalling conditions and trauma involved, therefore more Shell-Shock (PTSS not in the vocabulary at that time) victims returned home to America than returned to the British Isles (allied empire/commonwealth countries).
Casualty figures (rough estimate) WWI:
Western Front - 128,205 officers, and 2,632,592 other ranks and in all theatres - 144, 135 officers, and 2,953,257 other ranks.
Comparison figures:
On the Western Front there were five casualties to every nine men sent out;
a) in the Dardanelles the ratio was two to nine;
b) in Mesopotamia two to twelve; and
c) in other theatres the average was one to twelve.
Note: as a rough guide, about one third of casualties were men killed.
Without the Royal Navy securely guarding the English Channel during the whole conflict, the War could not have been won by the Allies, (though in reality it was not an outright WIN, it was an agreed ceasefire ending brought about by political pressure and the Kaiser's realisation that he was not and never could imitate Napolean's success and succeed where the Frenchman failed).
As an indication of this vital protection by the RN, the following totals of men were carried safely to France from August, 1914 to November, 1918.
a) 757,206 Officers
b) 9,986,504 Other ranks
c) 41,416 Nurses
d) 804,2312 Horses
By 2nd November, 1918, on the Western Front there were, in total, 2,260,054 men and women, and 404,176 animals.
Work it out for yourselves (if you can) how many of those returned alive. What the figures are for UK troops limbless, brain-injured, nobody really knows, but the plain fact of the matter is that life in civvy street for the working/lower middle classes (WW1 cannon fodder) was tough compared to our lifestyles of today, and when they returned home often the overall attitude of people then was so much more stoical than today.
-------------
WWII
Death casualties:
Country/Military......
USSR 12 million
Poland 597,000
Germany 3.25 million
Romania 450,000
Hungary 200,000
France 245,000
Italy 380,000
Great Britain 403,000
United States 407,000
Czechoslovakia 7,000
Holland 13,700
Greece 19,000
Belgium 76,000
During WWII, again UK shell-shock victims (PTSS) had a more stoical attitude, and I'll give the reasons thus:
Recollections of John Keegan "A History of Warfare" - his early account of entering Sandhurst as young officer cadet.
My head of department, a retired officer, wore on mess evenings the Distinguished Service Order, and the Military Cross with two bars and his distinctions were exceptional. There were majors and colonels with medals for bravery won at El Alamein, Cassino, Arnhem, and Kohima. The history of the second World War was written in these little strips of silk that they wore so lightly and its high moments were recoded with crosses and medals which the bearers scaresly seemed conscious of having beeen awarded. It was not only the kaleidescope of medals that entranced me. It was also the kaleidesope of uniforms and all that they signified.
Those who had been cavalry officers continued to wear with evening dress the morocco-topped patent leather boots, slotted at the heel for spurs, that belonged to their Lancer or Hussar uniforms. That had alerted me to the paradox that uniform was not uniform, but that regiments dressed differently. <abbreviated>: Lancers and Hussars in blue, scarlet, and green, Household Cavalrymen weighed down with gold lace, Riflemen in green (Royal Green Jackets & Howards), gunners in tight trousers, Guardsmen in stiff collars, and Highlanders (Scots) in six different patterns of tartan, Lowlanders in plaid trews and infantrymen of the county regiments with yellow, white, grey, purple or buff facings to their jackets. (symbols dating back to and beyond the Napoleonic wars; tradition, honour, the regiment above all else).
I had thought the army was one army. I realised it was not. I still had to learn that outward differences of dress spoke of inward differences og much greater importance. My regimental friends - the ready friendship extended by warriors is one of their most endearing qualities - were brothers-in-arms; but they were brothers only up to a point. "Regimental loyalty was the touchstone of their lives. A personal difference migt be forgiven the next day. A slur on the regiment would never be forgotten, indeed would never be uttered, so deeply would such a thing touch the values of the tribe."
Which, says Devonwren, brings us back to square one and why so many ex/serving SAS/SBS see the spate of books by AM/CR et al as betrayal to the regiment...
Secondly, how bizarre that AIB (staunch supporter of Andy McNab) and SM, (initially venomously anti McNab) should should ally himself to the former on a ridiculous point of order to do with "one Marine's (third-party) input on the subject of whether letters are more therapuetic in a cathartic sense than a snatched phone call or e-mail correspondence, and whether ex wives/widows of PTSS casualties make for good psychologists and psychotherapists...My point being I had to stop and think how to present a logical argument on this very subject, and similarly when you write a letter (in anger, in love etc., emotions run high (yes) at the same time you are working through the passion of anger/love/whatever, whereas e-mail correspondence more often than not reflects the properties of a postcard, (not always but it is detached to a degree)...
To further make my point of letter Vs e-mail: take for example the delight of hand-written letters to that of type-written, (casting aside bad or good handwriting) compare type-written invitations to hand-filled invitations, equally compare signed copies of books (personal signature) to that of book off the shelf (?) Do I really need to explain further? Probably!
Now, I'm probably about to put a cat among pigeons scenario with this, but it is a modern phenomina: PTSS sounds asthetically more pleasing than Shell-Shock (yes?), and Dislexia sounds eminently less stigmatised than "thick as sh*t" or "backward" - its original term being "word blindness" pre late 70's era...
Take GW1, a war which effectively lasted a few weeks, hence terrible visions and physical wounds of war...As far as PTSS goes the serving men had little time to adjust to the horrors of the conflict before it was over and they were being shipped home..Hence high levels of genuine PTSS, but here comes the crux! It is said by many medical professionals that psychoneurosis is on the up and that PTSS becomes infectious same way mass hysteria involves collective emotional overload, and with the "have I factor" comes need to know and inevitable research which leads to self analysis of "yes factor and resulting depression" .
To add to that shocking revelation it has become quite fashionable for any Tom, Dick, Harriet and Georgina celeb to pronounce themselves to the world as a dyslexic when in fact they are just plain thick (uneducated), and for true sufferers of dyslexia which are few and far between it further ridicules their efforts to be recognised as genuine cases ...Going a step further, Autism is for many a taboo subject, and when you see screaming seeming uncontrollable brats throwing a wobbly we tend to think poor parents, when in fact they are miniature charicatures of their parents' mindset and over indulgent lifestyles of processed food products. True Autism has far reaching consequences for carers, in much the same way true PTSS sufferers' loved ones endure...
>>By devonwren (Saturday, 21 Feb 2004 16:58)
On that Soldier 5 serialisation a few pages back...Mainstream sold it for a 'substantial five figure sum.' Wonder where that's headed...
Mike Coburn will be 'coming to the UK [...] for two weeks around the time of publication on March 4th.' and '...we are expecting a bestseller with a first print run of over 20,000 copies.'
And, an aside...
Public Lending Right statistics show that 'Andy McNab [...] less popular in libraries than [...] in bookshops'
Similarly...
AM board statistics show that postings about the mans work are less popular than... etc etc
>>By bikergirl (Saturday, 21 Feb 2004 17:15)
My grandfather died when I was three, but his gentlemans toilet box is in my possession, written in the lid are the places (trenches) he served in...When he came back, according to my mum, his hands used to shake from time to time but he brushed it aside, and his British stiff-upper-lip mentality and loyalty to the regiment was unbelievable: he like others lived wih nightmares and it is through him and his letters to my grandmother that show how the writing helped him to cope with the everyday horrors of France & Belgium during WWI...
In those days even cars were open-top, central heating didn't exist as we know it today, men were tough, more elegant on the whole than today, much more resilient than men of today, yet they were less prepared than men of today (100 year lapse between wars)...In truth, soldiers of today are really quite soft (I'm not talking physically fit), I'm talking mentally fit ...
>>By devonwren (Saturday, 21 Feb 2004 17:23)
As a follow-up to Devonwren's comment regarding "softness" and the changing times...
Morbid thoughts crossed my mind, following the Columbine shootings, when I read that the cafeteria would be completely closed off that portion of the school (oooh, too traumatic for the kids!), and when, following the bombing in Kansas City, the building was torn down and replaced with a commemorative park. Keeping to that line of logic, the Alamo should have been demolished, Gettysburg's hills ploughed under, the beaches at Normandy closed, London relocated elsewhere, etc. Even as the rubble is removed in NYC, I'm wondering how long before we will sanitize that memory, too. Today we treat such horrors as being too painful to be borne by the human psyche, and we avoid the real, visual context at all cost. Yet we live in an age of complete and utter "virtual" violence (movies, tv, video games). So which is worse? What is the old adage: unless we remember and learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it? Maybe more "reality bites" and less "virtual bytes" would help strengthen mental, moral and spiritual fortitude, and we'd be the wiser for it...
>>By am-i-binned (Saturday, 21 Feb 2004 18:50)
Okay, enough of that stuff (my head hurts bit time now)...
I'm more than ready for an AM-related mental health break!
Soldier Five:
Has there been another installment in the Sunday Mail? I've asked a couple of times but nobody's answered yet...
Brain Lint:
Got to thinking of a niggling Nick Stone problem the other day: How would James and Rosemary, Nick's CA (cover address), know which name Nick is traveling under in the event of him getting lifted? (Pssst! I don't think there's really an answer; it's just one of those little loose ends... kinda like Valentin's nephews...)
And speaking of Valentin, at what point did he get wise to Liv (as in when did Ignaty prove where his "loyalty" lay)? In all the times I've read Firewall, I still don't quite understand that situation. (Spoiler format would probably be best for discussing if anyone wants to get into this with me.)
>>By am-i-binned (Saturday, 21 Feb 2004 19:13)
Question :
How is the DW book going in the UK, is it among the Bestsellers or is it allready out of the list?
>>By borisette (Saturday, 21 Feb 2004 21:39)
Re: Soldier Five
Book reveals Kiwi accent puts soldier in peril
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/
0,2106,2822545a10,00.html
>>By am-i-binned (Saturday, 21 Feb 2004 22:41)
Hi Y'all,
Just a random musing... I know that Clive Cussler has written himself into a couple of his books and interacted with the main character, Dirk Pitt (the dialogue typically having Pitt raise an eyebrow as he asks CC if they've ever met before).
I wonder if Andy McNab has ever been tempted to write himself into one of his fictions... (or maybe he already has?.. I haven't read Lib Day or Dark Winter yet) Y'know, maybe have Nick Stone be approached by a certain ex-SAS Sargeant who has a job opening in his company that is providing security services in some hot spot...
I wonder what that dialogue would be like...?
>>By Majorette (Sunday, 22 Feb 2004 00:59)
That dialogue would be AM talking NS out of the book, so that he could have a go in playing the main character.
Anyway got some DF versus AM on the DF-board, for those who are interested. Reading the Hostage book by DF.
>>By borisette (Sunday, 22 Feb 2004 16:13)
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